I have been reading the rather lively Centerpointe thread and thought to start a slightly different but similar discussion.

I have been experimenting with binaural beats for over 25 years. I've made electronic tone generators and wrote lots of software to generate tones.

The tones work. Binaural beats work. Robert Monroe likened them to training wheels though. People I know who are adept at triggering their own altered states agree. You don't need the tones.

Monaural beats work also. One of the interesting things is that when people played binaural beat cassette tapes on "boom-boxes" the audience still got some effects. Dick Sutphen (hypnotist) uses a monaural (AM) beat quite effectively in his home study tapes.

Anna Wise has spent many years characterizing "localized" consiousness. One of the things she points out is that the brain produces multiple frequencies simulataneously. When the brain is firing on all cylinders you get a pattern she calls the awakened mind - beta, alpha, theta and delta occurring simultaneously.

Typically theta and delta are low amplitude and need to be encouraged. That's where the tones come in. Boost.

EEG does not seem to be very useful in charaterizing non-local consciousness (out of body, remote viewing, etc.)

Entrainment is a sorta slow process requiring minutes. If you sit and listen to nice spacy music or even silence then you'll get some of the same effects. If you listen to monaural or binaural beats you'll get some of the same effects.

Remember it is you doing it, not the tones or the tapes (think training wheels). You are the canvas the picture is painted on.

After you get to playing around with this stuff for a while you gain respect for those people who put a heck-of-a-lot of time in weeding out the non-productive combinations. Pretty soon buying their products becomes supporting their work.

could you briefly describe what that "weeding out" process involves. do you begin by testing certain frequency combinations just on yourself, or do you have a group of test subjects to work with?

By the way, thank you for your effort. What do you think of the Awakened Minds CD?

Weeding out is simply eliminating those tone combinations which don't have a whole lot of effect for me or that I don't like. For me it is almost all subjective.

Weeding out might better have been expressed as "tuning in." I sweep the carrier frequency until I feel something, then expand the beat frequency. Add another beat pair and keep going until it feels full.

I usually strive to utilize the western musical scale as a basis for things. A=440 doesn't drive musicians with perfect pitch nuts. 100 or 200 Hz don't fit into the diatonic system yet some mind travel systems use those frequency increments.

so are you saying its possible to produce a "diatonic" version of the AwakenedMinds CD? what would be the lowest delta frequency?
and by the way, do you know their formula
(all the frequencies on the CD)?

Anything is possible <grin>.

I have not heard any of the material from the folks at the website awakenedminds.com but from scoping out their site they are right on with the techniques.

The Awakened Mind I was referring to came from Anna Wise, a brain researcher and very nice lady. It is a pattern that you can find in her book, "The High Performance Mind" which has relative amplitudes and frequency information in it.

Exact frequency content of people's copyrighted combinations is not legally possible to divulge without them getting ****ed off. Hemi-sync is copyrighted but binaural beats are not.

Fourier transforms, joint time-frequency analysis, wavelet analysis all make reverse engineering a piece of cake these days. But why would you want to do what others have done? Why not break new ground? Discover new combinations? They discovered their patterns by tuning the dial.

As for an awakened mind pattern it is something like this ...

140 (1.5), 210 (2.0), 280 (6), 350 (6.5), 420 (11), 490 (11.5), 560 (21)

where the first number is the "carrier" and the parenthetical number is the "beat frequency" so that 200 (2) would be 199 Hz in one ear and 201 Hz in the other ear.

Chordally (diatonically) it might be something like ...

110 (2), 220 (1.5), 330 (4), 440 (4.6), 523 (6.5)

which makes an A minor chord that reinforces the delta and theta areas.

The problem is how to get the higher beta difference frequencies in a consonant pleasing way instead of sounding like geese farts. Delta and theta is easy but just try and find a place for the 30 Hz beta.

In response to your specific question about how low to go with the delta frequency, sub-hertz is acceptable. Indeed less than 2 Hz beat frequency gives some nice swirling stuff, very pleasant.

Low frequency carriers, like people talk about with Centerpointe is another thing entirely. The frequencies must be able to be reproduced by the headphones in order to be heard. The lower the carriers, the better the headphones needed to reproduce it.

I wonder if some of the "no-effect" responses from Centerpointe is due to using inadequate headphones?

quote:

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Originally posted by AlanHilton:

I wonder if some of the "no-effect" responses from Centerpointe is due to using inadequate headphones?

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Yeah, I have thought the same thing, since the carrier frequency principle doesn't work in mono. I have a hard time believing that anyone could listen to a 0.3 Hz beat at a 50 Hz carrier frequency for more than 5 minutes without "feeling anything". I avoid daring people to do this though (i.e. during those "does Centerpointe work" threads), because I am afraid they could mess themselves up if they play with carrierfrequencies that are too low.

Good info BTW, thanks...

[This message has been edited by garics (edited December 13, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by garics (edited December 13, 2004).]

In monaural you would not get the binaural effect but you would get a frequency following response and entrainment. Much of the early research on FFR was done on cats using clicks. If the signals (typically sine waves) are combined into a single channel they have constructive and destructive interference and hence amplitude modulate.

Hearing phenomena occur in bands of frequencies and the use of low (50 Hz) carrier frequencies will give a different effect than higher (150 or 300 Hz) frequencies.

For example I tried your suggestion and set up 50 (0.3) but did not perceive the same effect as 150 (0.3). At 150 (0.3) I sensed the sound source moving "swirling" but at 50 (0.3) there was no sensation of movement. The sound source seemed static with a 50 Hz carrier. 72 Hz carrier was pretty neat.

I've done a lot of "tuning the dial" and found that the preception of consonance and disonance, single sound source, grating, etc. varies depending on carrier frequency and it is not a straight linear progression although higher carriers seem to support higher beat frequencies without sounding grating.

It tend to cycle so that 260 Hz will support a higher beat frequency than 310 Hz. I have only my perceptual data and have not done a large sample. Great research topic. Very time consuming.

As far as folks freaking out ... some people have a flare for the dramatic. I have never encountered any combination that caused me to freak out. There are some more pleasant and less pleasant combinations, more powerful combinations and less powerful combinations. There are combinations that "take me places" and combinations that help me "be present" and focus on mental tasks.

The tones merely accentuate what's there or help to encourage it if it is absent. They are "training wheels." The effects fade after you stop listening to them. There are days where I am more susceptable to entrainment and other days where I don't get much effect.

Fscinating stuff!

quote:

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Originally posted by AlanHilton:

For example I tried your suggestion and set up 50 (0.3) but did not perceive the same effect as 150 (0.3).

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The combination that supposedly caused Bill and his friends to "freak out" was Purification Level 3, I think the carrier on that one is about 80 HZ. I'm estimating. 50 (.3) is a lot lower than that and is like starting the Centerpointe Program at Flowering Level 3, which is the next to last level.

Anyway, I would try it again for about 15 minutes if you are curious. It is not necessarily going to have the "aesthetic" or pleasing effect you are in the habit of researching with other frequency combinations. But it is guaranteed to have an effect, unless you are just flat-out unresponsive to that kind of technology. And maybe some people are, I don't know.

(When I go "frequency diving" I usually feel euphoric for a couple of days, and then somewhat disoriented thereafter.)

For a novice, where would one go looking for tone generators, the average price of such things and all the gear you would need to produce the results you have mentioned?

http://www.bwgen.com

Free to download the software, $40 to register after a 1-month trial

You guys mentioned the possibility of inadequate headphones a few posts back. I'm one of those Holosync users who's up to Purifying Level 1 and has yet to experience the dramatic effects so touted by the literature. I have a pair of Denons with a range of 2Hz-30kHz and am using a portable Sony Discman. In your opinion, are these adequate?

More than adequate, it sounds like. Purification Level 1 tones wouldn't be any lower than 100 Hz, and any commercial player can easily reproduce that.
I have never heard of headphones that have a frequency response that low -- are you sure its not 20 HZ? If not, I'm awfully impressed, although I don't think many homo sapiens can hear below 20. Maybe there's some indirect advantage to reproducing the lower frequencies which are imperceptible.

If you want to experiment with lower carrier frequencies to try to discover more of an effect, you can use Brainwave Generator, the website was mentioned in a previous post.

i havent done much of these cept a bit of HS
i must say that gateway is by far one of the best things ive come across
just relax into it it will have some effect
but do not think you are going to be some new kind of person sometime soon
the personality change only comes easier when you do it intuitively with the state you have reached
some do not see it or recognise it because they have never been there
like the love of God or the world (or all existence) seems forced on many
but i think with a fresh mind and relaxed emotions you have time to decide on these things

im more into this side of things and do not know anything of frequencies but id love to get to know more one day
i love to learn
but it would have to fit into my 8 hours a day i do now lol

yay its christmas
don't celebrate it but i do celebrate the happy people and yummy food
i've got some shortbread
merry christmas all

Thanks for your reply garics and yes it is 2Hz. I just finished checking it on Denon's site. Thanks for the info on Brainwave Generator. I downloaded the software last night and am making wave files for most of the presets. You mentioned the possibility of lowering the carrier frequency. I'm not sure how to do that. Any ideas? Also, I noticed that the presets end abruptly with no fade-out. Do you know if there is a way I can fix this? Perhaps by masking the tones with another sound file, say nature sounds? Again, thanks for replying.

Mindsurfer,

To create a low carrier frequency track, do the following:
Open BWGen, click on the "new preset" button. Name it "carrier", or whatever.
In the general tab you will want to have two segments. When you start there should already be a segment "A" which is 10 minutes long. Click "Add" under the segments box and it will automatically add another "B" segment which is also 10 minutes long. Use the A segment for ramping down from 15 Hz to 1.5 Hz in the first 10 minutes of the preset. So click on the "A" segment in the segments box, click on the "A:Sound" tab next to the general tab, use the edit feature to ramp down linearly to 1.5 Hz. (After you outgrow a particular level you can lower the binaural freq to 0.5 and then 0.3, as they do in the Centerpointe program.)
The carrier frequency you are using is indicated in the lower part of this tab; for the "ramping down" part I usually just leave it as-is, set to "track binaural beat frequency", which should already be checked.
Now go back to the general tab, click on the B segment, and then click on the "B:Sound" tab next to the general tab.
There should be three nodes in the binaural beat frequency graph. Delete the middle one, set the leftmost and the rightmost to 1.5 Hz. You should have a straight line at 1.5 Hz in the "Binaural Beat Frequency" box.
Go down to the Audible Pitch section of the sound tab, uncheck "track another parameter" and make sure the other box is unchecked as well. Click "edit" on one of the nodes and set them to 120 Hz... this is the "carrier frequency" for the preset you are creating... 120 Hz is probably lower than where you are right now, so be careful and don't use this one for too long.
Even though the B segment is only ten minutes long, it will keep looping indefinitely so you can stay in that zone for as long as you want.
Purification Level 1 is probably somewhere between 150 and 200 Hz; I have been researching a little and trying to find the exact carrier frequencies for all the holosync levels, but have been unable to so far. (I think there's a yahoo group that published them a while ago.)
Anyway, congratulations, you have just created the holosync program and saved yourself a bunch of money on the remaining levels.. The exact carrier frequencies used in the program are not really the issue anyway. Just be safe, start somewhere that is comfortable for you, and gradually lower the carrier as the effect diminishes. If you are really eager to feel something, then you can start under 100 Hz, but I wouldn't do that for more than a few minutes at a time.

....To do a fade-out, go to the sound tab and choose "user-defined" under the Volume Settings. I usually use either pink or brown noise at 50% when I make these kinds if tracks...the settings for this are in the same tab.

Oh, by the way, some versions of BWGen can be a little buggy, so you may need to check and re-check your settings to make sure everything stays where you put it.

Good luck,

Garic

[This message has been edited by garics (edited December 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by garics (edited December 27, 2004).]

garics--thank you, thank you, thank you! You've given me all the info I needed and more. Can't wait to get started.

Hope everyone had a happy holy-days!

What model Denon headphones? 2 Hz to 30 kHz now that's impressive +/- 30 dB? <grin>. I couldn't find any flatness graphs. How flat are they?

I am going to respect-full-y disagree with the warning about lower carriers being "dangerous." IMHO They ain't.

The only thing "dangerous" about low binaural frequencies is that you may fall asleep and get a crick in your neck.

Current theory says brain entrainment occurs based on frequency differences (binaural) or amplitude modulation (monaural). Carrier frequency is not mentioned.

Carrier frequency does make a difference in things like auditory localization. Low beat frequencies like 0.3 Hz will probably cause things to seem kinda swirly (change spacial position). At 50 Hz, for me, that swirly sensation dropped off and just became changes in loudness.

The folks at BWGEN.COM are good people. They are providing a community for discussion and exchanging presets.

For those wishing to do some experimentation I can send you a windows freeware program. Just email me. I've got a spam blocker so just put "binaural" or something like that in the message.

Alan,

The model I have is AH-D950 which, most unfortunately, has been discontinued. They were pricey (a little over $300.00)but worth it. I think I'll e-mail you for the program--love to experiment! You and garic have supplied me with priceless information. Many thanks--and a prosperous New Year!

Well here's a little update for those wanting more precise info, this was passed along to me by someone on the Awakened Minds yahoo group, these are the exact frequencies on the Awakening Prologue. Given the total number of levels in the program you can pretty much extract the reamining carrier frequencies (remember that for each level, the "Immersion" track will just stay at the last carrier and binaural beat frequency, or drop to 1.5, 0.5, or 0.3 if it is one of the "bonus tracks":

> For example, this is the binaural beat component of the Awakening
> Prologue "Dive" (to which is added all the bells and rain and other
> effects that go to make up the complete HoloSync experience):
>
> 144.6Hz carrier centre frequency, 10Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 144.3Hz carrier centre frequency, 9Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 143.9Hz carrier centre frequency, 8Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 143.4Hz carrier centre frequency, 7Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 142.9Hz carrier centre frequency, 6Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 142.4Hz carrier centre frequency, 5Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 141.7Hz carrier centre frequency, 3.5Hz beat, 6 minutes
> 141.3Hz carrier centre frequency, 2.6Hz beat, 6 minutes
>
> Level 1 "Dive" does a similar kind of thing, but going from around
> 125Hz to 120Hz. As you can see, the carrier doesn't drop very much
> during the session.
>
> (When I say "carrier centre frequency", I mean the frequency half-way
> between the two carriers, so a 144.6Hz centre frequency plus a 10Hz
> beat means 139.6Hz and 149.6Hz on the two channels.)

I do think it can be useful to start higher, around 200Hz as you say,
though.

[This message has been edited by garics (edited January 04, 2005).]

The Awakened Mind was the title of the book by Maxwell Caid and Nona Coxhead written in London about fifty years ago following research by Maxwell into EEG in the second world war. His first commercial machine the MIND MIRROR( one of which I still have ) was plotting brain electrical activity at that time.
Everything written since has been re inventing the wheel.

I don't understand how this starts at 20hz beating and ends at 2hz? I thought that the dive started in beta and ended in delta... is this not true?

patrick

> 144.6Hz carrier centre frequency, 10Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 144.3Hz carrier centre frequency, 9Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 143.9Hz carrier centre frequency, 8Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 143.4Hz carrier centre frequency, 7Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 142.9Hz carrier centre frequency, 6Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 142.4Hz carrier centre frequency, 5Hz beat, 3 minutes
> 141.7Hz carrier centre frequency, 3.5Hz beat, 6 minutes
> 141.3Hz carrier centre frequency, 2.6Hz beat, 6 minutes