And what a book it would make!
NOW this is getting good.
Verbal sparring at it’s best--a great joy!
True words aren't eloquent; eloquent words aren't true.
Yes...it has been mentioned. Words and thoughts are lies, but who cares. They are functional lies. Recognize this fact, look past it, then ask how this can serve you.
Wise men don't need to prove their point; men who need to prove their point aren't wise.
Fortunately for me, I don’t NEED to prove my point. I’m just having fun. I read and post here, because I enjoy the intellectual stimulation of passionate, zestful minds.
In past months I’ve become less and less Taoist. I’ve been studying this guy Hsun Tzu. He’s a strange mix of Lao Tzu, Confucius, and Pragmatism. He essentially took the best from both philosophies and combined them into something greater—something more functional, more results generating. He neither gets lost in the Way nor in the Rites, but synthesizes them beautifully.
And Lao-Tsu only wrote The Tao Te Ching at the request of his unelightened followers.
That’s precisely my point. Lao Tzu wrote O-F his direct experience, so that others could learn from him.
And do you know where Lao Tzu L-E-A-R-N-E-D about the Tao? From S-T-U-D-Y-I-N-G the texts of the ancients in the grand archives. He was a bloody bookworm! At least that’s what the historian S’ma Tien had recorded—all knowledge of the man is uncertain. And he certainly never had any followers in his lifetime. He was scorned by the masses, he was old, he was ugly, a recluse, an outcast, he spent his latter days wandering, admiring nature and *contemplating*...not the best man I can think of to model. Let us not forget he was a philosopher. What do philosophers do? They use their faculty of reason to formulate theories, then transmit them to their followers through the written word, who learn from those words.
Take Tai Chi--the *embodiment* of Taoist philosophy. One of my friends has about 5 feet worth of books on the topic that he has read, which has given him an enormous advantage over me, as I have read only one book on form. Of the thousands of people in my tai chi lineage over the past hundred years, ONE person ‘got it’ in 6 months instead of 40 years. ONE PERSON. He was fortunate enough to skip over the intellectualization. The other 99.99% haven’t been so lucky, unfortunately.
Duh!
Indeed. ‘Duh.’
We are all walking the path, there is no first step.
Again, we all know there is no first step because everything flows or some s hit. But it’s functional to make distinctions—baby, child, adolescent, adult—all the same, yes, but classification is right and good—especially on your tax form. If I discern a first step, there’s a first goddamn step to me, and I’m better off for having made that distinction. I’ve learned something.
It certainly doesn't begin with the intellect.
Oh really? And where did you first learn about spirituality? Please answer this one.
(Words) are also the essence of our misery. Ever read the Siva Sutras? "Limited knowledge is bondage".
Ever read the Brian Sutras? In addition to being a perennial classic on neo-tantric sexual positions, it also states that “Limited knowledge is functional”. With it, we can focus on things and manipulate them so that we can use them to our advantage.
I imagine if Lao Tsu new you wasted two years dissecting his written "Tao" he would be most disappointed in you. Its not a product of the intellect and can never be grasped by the intellect.
You’re not reading what I’m writing. Stop telling me that the Tao can’t be grasped by the intellect. We’ve established that a hundred times. Stop telling me that there is no truth. Wonderful, I agree. My question to you still remains, WHERE DO YOU GO FROM THERE?
As far as living a life of quality right now, as far as helping other people, as far as effusive joy, Taoism pretty much sucks. It’s the best background a body could have to further understanding of life, however. –the perfect foundation.
Here’s my story: I stepped out of my room one day, the wind picked up, my door slammed shut, and I was locked out. It was a nice day so I thought I’d spend it walking around the campus until my roommate returned. I found my way to the library. I was walking through stack after stack of books. Suddenly I stopped, turned around, and picked up a book I had seen out of the corner of my eye. It was a collection of the holy texts of the world—all the majors. I was struck by the simplicity of the Tao Te Ching. I had never seen anything like this before in my life—I had heretofore been a severely limp roman catholic. I read random lines from it and my brain started to go into spasms! I took the book with me everywhere I went. Understanding it was like decoding a secret message. What joy! What delightful frustration! I had fun and I learned a lot. That was my first step. Before that, you couldn’t pick my spiritual beliefs or my habits out of a line-up from Joe Six-Pack.
This for me, was a beginning. Of course, there are no beginnings as you’ve pointed out, but who cares? For me it was a beginning. With my faculty of reason, I choose to label that experience as a beginning, because it aids in my intellectual understanding of the progression of my life.
My reply: I think that somewhere you have gotten lost in the intellectual notion that there ARE intellectual notions. If that's where you are, and you are NOT experiencing the ultimate reality... then honestly..... what good is it doing YOU?
You must have skipped over what I wrote above, “Realize that it is no sin to talk about what cannot be perfectly articulated—as long as we don’t confuse the word for the thing.”
‘What good is it doing me?’ I’m glad you asked. Because I know that this mind can never know absolute truth--that all is perception--I am free to choose my own perceptions. I can choose whichever perception I deem will bring me to a greater quality of life, greater happiness. This is NLP too, and NLP is like a biscuit sopped in the grease of pragmatism. It is in many ways a Taoist Science—Taoism ‘put to use’.
You can go ahead and live in the world and rock ass Brian. I'd rather let the world live in me and rock ass.
Hey, some like to give and some like to receive. 
Whatever rocks your boat, heh.
Finally, please do not repeat this clause or any variation of it in your reply (should you choose to reply): “there is no truth”
Recognize this fact, look past it, then ask how this can serve you.
Now, you are a worthy opponent, but before you rush off into another retaliatory strike, I have an assignment for you. I want you to read http://www.wie.org/j15/robbins.html Read it as thoroughly as you can. Take time to appreciate the nuance. Let the words wash over your intellect like a gentle spring breeze...ahh. Seriously, this article is essentially Tony Robbins tearing up the ‘sole pursuit’ of enlightenment (or ego-destruction) with a healthy dose of pragmatism. Please, when you read this, block out our discussion from your mind. Try to be as open-minded as possible. Don’t read with a cynical eye or an eye of defensiveness. The truth be told, I held your exact beliefs before I read this article a few months ago. Give it a fair go, and see if any seeds sprout up.
[This message has been edited by Brian649 (edited March 22, 2001).]
