Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Beyond Human no subjeto

True words aren't eloquent; eloquent words aren't true.

Yes...it has been mentioned. Words and thoughts are lies, but who cares. They are functional lies. Recognize this fact, look past it, then ask how this can serve you.

Wise men don't need to prove their point; men who need to prove their point aren't wise.

Fortunately for me, I don’t NEED to prove my point. I’m just having fun. I read and post here, because I enjoy the intellectual stimulation of passionate, zestful minds.

In past months I’ve become less and less Taoist. I’ve been studying this guy Hsun Tzu. He’s a strange mix of Lao Tzu, Confucius, and Pragmatism. He essentially took the best from both philosophies and combined them into something greater—something more functional, more results generating. He neither gets lost in the Way nor in the Rites, but synthesizes them beautifully.

And Lao-Tsu only wrote The Tao Te Ching at the request of his unelightened followers.

That’s precisely my point. Lao Tzu wrote O-F his direct experience, so that others could learn from him.

And do you know where Lao Tzu L-E-A-R-N-E-D about the Tao? From S-T-U-D-Y-I-N-G the texts of the ancients in the grand archives. He was a bloody bookworm! At least that’s what the historian S’ma Tien had recorded—all knowledge of the man is uncertain. And he certainly never had any followers in his lifetime. He was scorned by the masses, he was old, he was ugly, a recluse, an outcast, he spent his latter days wandering, admiring nature and *contemplating*...not the best man I can think of to model. Let us not forget he was a philosopher. What do philosophers do? They use their faculty of reason to formulate theories, then transmit them to their followers through the written word, who learn from those words.

Take Tai Chi--the *embodiment* of Taoist philosophy. One of my friends has about 5 feet worth of books on the topic that he has read, which has given him an enormous advantage over me, as I have read only one book on form. Of the thousands of people in my tai chi lineage over the past hundred years, ONE person ‘got it’ in 6 months instead of 40 years. ONE PERSON. He was fortunate enough to skip over the intellectualization. The other 99.99% haven’t been so lucky, unfortunately.

Duh!

Indeed. ‘Duh.’

We are all walking the path, there is no first step.

Again, we all know there is no first step because everything flows or some s hit. But it’s functional to make distinctions—baby, child, adolescent, adult—all the same, yes, but classification is right and good—especially on your tax form. If I discern a first step, there’s a first goddamn step to me, and I’m better off for having made that distinction. I’ve learned something.

It certainly doesn't begin with the intellect.

Oh really? And where did you first learn about spirituality? Please answer this one.

(Words) are also the essence of our misery. Ever read the Siva Sutras? "Limited knowledge is bondage".

Ever read the Brian Sutras? In addition to being a perennial classic on neo-tantric sexual positions, it also states that “Limited knowledge is functional”. With it, we can focus on things and manipulate them so that we can use them to our advantage.

I imagine if Lao Tsu new you wasted two years dissecting his written "Tao" he would be most disappointed in you. Its not a product of the intellect and can never be grasped by the intellect.

You’re not reading what I’m writing. Stop telling me that the Tao can’t be grasped by the intellect. We’ve established that a hundred times. Stop telling me that there is no truth. Wonderful, I agree. My question to you still remains, WHERE DO YOU GO FROM THERE?

As far as living a life of quality right now, as far as helping other people, as far as effusive joy, Taoism pretty much sucks. It’s the best background a body could have to further understanding of life, however. –the perfect foundation.

Here’s my story: I stepped out of my room one day, the wind picked up, my door slammed shut, and I was locked out. It was a nice day so I thought I’d spend it walking around the campus until my roommate returned. I found my way to the library. I was walking through stack after stack of books. Suddenly I stopped, turned around, and picked up a book I had seen out of the corner of my eye. It was a collection of the holy texts of the world—all the majors. I was struck by the simplicity of the Tao Te Ching. I had never seen anything like this before in my life—I had heretofore been a severely limp roman catholic. I read random lines from it and my brain started to go into spasms! I took the book with me everywhere I went. Understanding it was like decoding a secret message. What joy! What delightful frustration! I had fun and I learned a lot. That was my first step. Before that, you couldn’t pick my spiritual beliefs or my habits out of a line-up from Joe Six-Pack.

This for me, was a beginning. Of course, there are no beginnings as you’ve pointed out, but who cares? For me it was a beginning. With my faculty of reason, I choose to label that experience as a beginning, because it aids in my intellectual understanding of the progression of my life.

My reply: I think that somewhere you have gotten lost in the intellectual notion that there ARE intellectual notions. If that's where you are, and you are NOT experiencing the ultimate reality... then honestly..... what good is it doing YOU?

You must have skipped over what I wrote above, “Realize that it is no sin to talk about what cannot be perfectly articulated—as long as we don’t confuse the word for the thing.”

‘What good is it doing me?’ I’m glad you asked. Because I know that this mind can never know absolute truth--that all is perception--I am free to choose my own perceptions. I can choose whichever perception I deem will bring me to a greater quality of life, greater happiness. This is NLP too, and NLP is like a biscuit sopped in the grease of pragmatism. It is in many ways a Taoist Science—Taoism ‘put to use’.

You can go ahead and live in the world and rock ass Brian. I'd rather let the world live in me and rock ass.

Hey, some like to give and some like to receive. Whatever rocks your boat, heh.

Finally, please do not repeat this clause or any variation of it in your reply (should you choose to reply): “there is no truth”

Recognize this fact, look past it, then ask how this can serve you.

Now, you are a worthy opponent, but before you rush off into another retaliatory strike, I have an assignment for you. I want you to read http://www.wie.org/j15/robbins.html Read it as thoroughly as you can. Take time to appreciate the nuance. Let the words wash over your intellect like a gentle spring breeze...ahh. Seriously, this article is essentially Tony Robbins tearing up the ‘sole pursuit’ of enlightenment (or ego-destruction) with a healthy dose of pragmatism. Please, when you read this, block out our discussion from your mind. Try to be as open-minded as possible. Don’t read with a cynical eye or an eye of defensiveness. The truth be told, I held your exact beliefs before I read this article a few months ago. Give it a fair go, and see if any seeds sprout up.

[This message has been edited by Brian649 (edited March 22, 2001).]

I'm not you opponent, not at all. I'm really just a part of your own mind else you wouldn't bother a reply. And yes, you are a part of mine, an all to familiar part. The biggest pitfall I know of is getting caught in the net of our own thinking. You can't unravel your own ego with the intellect. Some day all your conceptual walls won't just fall, they'll shatter. Me, my, mine, it will all distingrate. I know the intellects place and I also know where it doesn't belong. As long as you are so bent on engaging it, you will be caught.

From your slightly disparaging remarks about Taoism I don't think your two years of intensive study (which I imagine is quite an exageration anyway) really paid off. Taoism fully represents the "effusive joy" you claim it doesn't. I have the sensation that I'm speaking to a materialist in denial, pillaging the esoteric to enhance his firm conceptual framework of an imaginary life.

By the way, "there is nothing but truth", and you CAN quote me on that!

This discussion has gotten very unweildy.

I’ve noticed that you haven’t responded to any of my points.

I'm not you opponent, not at all.

You’re arguing with me, taking an opposite stance. And if you’ll look back a couple posts, you’ll find yourself saying, “So many concepts and ideas and crap..You guys seem to talk so much about this ****, its really sickening.”

The biggest pitfall I know of is getting caught in the net of our own thinking.
sure.

You can't unravel your own ego with the intellect...

yep.

..two years of intensive study

That was, ‘two years ago’. I spent perhaps a month poring through the book. Then about one year in avid Taoist practice. I became a Tai Chi nut. Perhaps 3 hours a day of meditation, including ZaZen..then baggy clothes, sleeping on the floor, ‘just breathing’, being ‘above it all’, staring into space, the whole bit.
But that’s not the way. ‘Zen Flesh; Zen Bones.’ Americans often get lost here. All we see is the Zen Flesh...the Taoist mindset, letting go. What of the Zen Bones? That’s the ‘in the world’ part of eastern spirituality. People don’t go to Zen Monasteries their entire lives. They go there for a purpose—to eradicate the ego. Once done, they leave and go back to their lives.

Unfortunately for me, my grades and future prospects could not survive any more spiritual dalliance. About 5 months ago I canned Tai Chi and the ancient methods in order to find something newer, more effective. Enter Binaural Beats, Enter Natural Brilliance. I firmly recognize the vast powers of Alpha-wave Consciousness. I want them. I desire them. Fortunately for us, THERE IS A WAY to attain such a Zen Mindset without spending an inordinate number of years in meditation or getting lost in the ‘nothing worldly matters’ dead-end.

30 minutes before sleep, 30 minutes upon waking, also when I study. If I want to eradicate my ego, all I need do is put on a pair of headphones and click a few buttons. Viola. ‘My monastery is my sleep,’ as I am fond of saying. The rest of the day is spent in flow—creating, striving. This is the new spirituality. In-the-world Taoism (aka FLOW) ..or ‘a spirituality of resistance’ as Synergy mentioned above.

Some day all your conceptual walls won't just fall, they'll shatter. Me, my, mine, it will all distingrate.

yes. What of it?

I know the intellects place and I also know where it doesn't belong.

I’m not sure you do. Do you really think that our sole purpose in being born is to destroy our egos? Our personalities? (Even the most enlightened swami’s have personalities.) Does that make sense to you? What a silly thing. What a waste of time... unless of course, you’ll be reborn.

Not only that, but what about the evolutionary perspective? Presumably we evolved egos so we could better focus on things and ‘make use’ of things.

It is commonly said in eastern circles that we have to know unhappiness in order to know happiness..so that’s the major argument why we should transcend ourselves, so it’ll all be happiness. Well, here’s my take on this: All you have to be is unhappy ONCE. Just once. After you know what unhappiness is, you can then make the distinction between the two. So, why can’t you be happy all the time? Like being sick. If I’m never sick, I don’t know the difference between sickness and health. If I get sick once, I know what sickness is for the rest of my life, and I can avoid it and go for health 100% of the time. Why should it be any different with happiness? Here we have happiness within duality.

As long as you are so bent on engaging it, you will be caught.

Caught?...not as such. Most are caught in that they don’t know they’re caught and they mistake perception for reality, truly prisoners of the ego. It’s more like ‘knowingly caught.’ Knowingly Caught but ‘delighting in the way’. Knowingly Caught but striving. Knowingly Caught but wordly successful. Knowingly Caught but..happy. Works for me! (I can explain this one further if you like)

Taoism fully represents the "effusive joy" you claim it doesn't.

‘Other people are excited,
as though they were at a parade.
I alone don't care,
I alone am expressionless,
like an infant before it can smile.’

Taoism brings simple peace. Conservation of energy. No extremes either way.

It’s Confucius who says to ‘delight in the way.’ (like Mihalyi’s Flow State)

You know, I like to laugh, and I like to laugh hard. In fact, ..I think my fondest moments in life were those in which I was laughing so hard I could not breathe. I would not be without these.

I have the sensation that I'm speaking to a materialist in denial, pillaging the esoteric to enhance his firm conceptual framework of an imaginary life.

I prefer a sifting metaphor. Culling the fanciful cul-de-sacs of the esoteric to get to what’s immediately useful and beneficial. And if you must label me, call me a spiritual materialist.

By the way, "there is nothing but truth", and you CAN quote me on that!

Since I do know you will keep debating these matters in the future though, let me clarify a couple of things. Self-Realization isn't about destroying the ego and retreating from the world. It involves purifying the ego until it stops identifing with the mind, senses and body. This is quite the opposite of annihilation. The ego is turned within, towards consciousness, and undergoes a transcendental self-sacrifice, or infinite expansion. One no longer identifies with some limited psycho-physical expression, but rather the universal substratum of Being, Consciousness and Bliss. True realization doesn't involve comming back to the world either. The "world" is now seen as an aspect of your own self, that is, at least when you look at it. And what is this act of "looking at the world"? None other than the world's instantaneous creation within your own Self.

For the TENTH time. A-L-L T-H-I-S I-S K-N-O-W-N T-O M-E (p-e-r-i-o-d)

You’re clarifying nothing. You’re simply paraphrasing the same point relentlessly, over and over and over.

I understand our differences now. Brian, I advise you to not discuss matters like this in the future because your understanding is unripe, immature and naive.

Have you noticed that as I began to body slam you on issue after issue, you stopped providing new material? Further, that you stopped responding to ANY, not ONE of my points or refutations?

Have you noticed how the tone of your writing has changed? You went from common flamer to aloof sage. You’re using more vocabulary words too.

And now, you’re getting on your high horse, ending with a BLOODY GROUNDLESS attack on my experience.

Dear me, how sad.

Could you even, for one moment, try and back up your assertions? You know, this reminds me of a football player and a tai chi master. I (the hefty football player) charge straight into you (the tai chi master), and as I press against you, you give. You give and so I keep charging, straight through you..and I keep doing this and doing this, yet my body pushes nothing. Look. It takes TWO willing partners to argue. You’re NOT arguing, you’re NOT debating. You’re wasting my time, and the truth be told, you’re exhausting me. I actually feel mentally exhausted from this conversation at this moment. (even though it is almost 5am!)

You’re ‘Playing the Tao’ with me, like a matador, and I must say, you’re quite good at it. (Actually, that is a sincere complement!) I know that weakness always wins out over strength, and so..I should probably wizen up to your style. (And yes, I treat everything in life as a game)

You are not seeking Liberation or Self-Realization, you are seeking self-actualization.

More specifically, I am looking for the practical benefits of enlightenment...without the enlightenment.

It’s kind of like relationships at my age. All any guy wants my age is sex, right? (9 times out of 10). Well, we have to go through the ridiculous courtship rules and dating scene and spend tons of money, time, and energy..and for what? That 5 seconds of euphoria. Well, what I seek is to skip all that formality, and to just get in and get out, as it were, on demand. Okay okay, this is a crass example, but it illustrates my designs.

This website has become an old friend of late. It’s the 10 Bulls of Zen, which chronicles The Path. http://www.cs.sfu.ca/people/ResearchStaff/jamie/personal/10_Bulls/Table_of_Contents.html

step inside and I’ll share with you my master plan.

Here is my makeshift interpretation..
Bull #1: The Search for the Bull
this is ignorance ..lost in thinking simple perception is reality

Bull #2: Discovering the Footprints
this is essentially 'intellectually understanding the path' (it begins with ‘reason’)

Bull #3: Perceiving the Bull
this is essentially 'living in the flow state'. –predominantly alpha waves, some theta.

Bull #4: Catching the Bull
this is essentially 'disciplining your mind so it does what it's told'

Bull #5: Taming the Bull
this is essentially 'geniushood'

Bull #6: Riding the Bull Home
this is losing oneself in people and ones work

Okay, 'I'm in flow, I take decisive action, I'm a genius.' Natural Brilliance, Binaural Beats, maybe Nootropics... they can take me here, and indeed are currently moving me through bull #4 It should be the short matter of a handful of months before I reach my goal of Bull #6.

That’s what I want. This is pragmatic spirituality to me. This is *FUNCTIONAL ENLIGHTENMENT*. And unlike the real thing, it is eminently attainable. I don’t need silence, I don’t need to remove myself from the world or from earthly pleasures or from fun or from my success goals. I don’t need 20 years. I don’t need tai chi. I don’t need philosophy or any more books. All I need is two 30 minute .mp3s to play before and after sleep.

I mean, how else can spirituality serve me at this tender age of 20?

What is spirituality to me? Spirituality is:
a. Being in the flow state 24/7. (flow)
b. Perpetually doing the Right Thing (action) based on my Intuition (genius).

Now, as I see it, this is as far as I want to go if I want to maintain an East/West balance—borrowing the Super-powers of the East while striving and thriving Western-style. In order to go past this, I'd have to forego distraction and dedicate my life to absolute truth seeking. This would require SILENCE. And non-stimulation. It may be decades before I even want to reach this—and it would certainly be *after* I have done what I came here to do...Contributed something fantastic.

(I also don’t think it would be *possible* to go any further with my current pragmatic mindset..I’d have give up desire for one thing. I’d have to give up the pursuit..and I’m not prepared to do that just yet. Those who desire to become enlightened in order to become ‘Supermen’ cannot get past this point—but why would they want to—at least until their mortality nears?)

Bull #7: body transcended

Bull #8: ego transcended -- empty Zen Circle, ‘I create the world’

Bull #9: Reaching the Source
godhead. Pure spirit. TRUE enlightenment experienced. Pure Taoism. Eternal peace. Eternal life. No more distinction between mind/body/others/environment. All form is one.

Bull #10: In the World
pure selflessness. pure bliss. share good things and good times with others. there is no higher purpose.

If you can't practice something as simple as tact when talking to other people, you're never going to achieve any of these things you talk about and try so hard to impress us with.

You two seem to be stuck on this topic, so release and notice, respond and witness .

OK, here is a little thing I learned for controversal discussions from my communications prof:

Tell the other one in your own words his/her opinion. S/He then says "yes, you understood" or "no, you got me wrong on X".
After the current state is clear, resume discussion.

Will you try it?

Jens

Brian, know that I do respect your opinions and knowledge, otherwise I wouldn't be responding. And no, I haven't been debating or arguing with you. I've been interpreting this as a lively discussion and that (along with the fact that I really hate being on a computer any longer than I have to) is the reason I'm not charging back and dismantling your points. But I'll try, in good spitits, for your sake.

***THERE IS A WAY to attain such a Zen Mindset without spending an inordinate number of years in meditation or getting lost in the ‘nothing worldly matters’ dead-end. . . 30 minutes before sleep, 30 minutes upon waking, also when I study. If I want to eradicate my ego, all I need do is put on a pair of headphones and click a few buttons. Viola.***

I have nothing against Hemi-Sync or N.B., but this is not the Zen mindset, this a mental crutch, even worse, its a possible dependency. Great for accelerating learning, wrong for real progress in learning to still the mind. And it would seem to be strengthing your ego rather than freeing you.

***That’s what I want. This is pragmatic spirituality to me. This is *FUNCTIONAL ENLIGHTENMENT*. AND UNLIKE THE REAL THING, it is eminently attainable. I don’t need silence, I don’t need to remove myself from the world or from earthly pleasures or from fun or from my success goals. I don’t need 20 years. I don’t need tai chi. I don’t need philosophy or any more books. All I need is two 30 minute .mp3s to play before and after sleep.***

Thanks for sharing but I summed this up for you last time: you seem to be seeking self-actualization, not realization or enlightenment. It might also be that you just got on the wrong path. I have no particular interest in Zen, Tai Chi, or removing myself from the world (in a literal sense) either. It doesn't have to be like that, sitting in silence or standing like a tree for 20 years. This is your basic misconception, that true enlightenment will make your dreams, goals and interest in life void and require a lifetime of tedious discipline. If this is really your position, I disagree entirely. There are other roads, roads that go the distance and have been proven for millenia. This is why they are ancient. Not ancient because old and outdated, ancient because they are effective, lack nothing, time-tested and proven.

***Now, as I see it, this is as far as I want to go if I want to maintain an East/West balance. . . In order to go past this, I'd have to forego distraction and dedicate my life to absolute truth seeking. This would require SILENCE. And non-stimulation. It may be decades before I even want to reach this—and it would certainly be *after* I have done what I came here to do...Contributed something fantastic.***

There is nothing more fantastic that a person can "contribute" than the realization of the Self. A liberated yogi will know no obstacle to his will and intention. The state of absolute freedom is exactly that, freedom to know and do anything. And why do you want to maintain some elusive idea like an East/West balance? I'd give up the distinction.

Now let me state the obvious, we have two diffent takes on enlightenmet. You have made yours clear, I'll try to do the same.

The true state is incomprehensible to the mind and therefore generates a lot of fear in our ego complex. It is seen as a type of death and indeed it is. Its death to the imaginary dream we took to be this world and our fluctuating identity as some wretched, impotent experient/personality. Its recognition of the fact that we are god, we are perfect and contain all of creation within us. This is not a preclusion to acting in the world drama, its just seeing everything as it truly is. And it is my opinion that the fully realized, perfected beings are not the ones in the Himalayan caves meditating all day long. They are mostly unkown to us, playing large and small roles (whatever you want) in this game while remaining in a state of absolute bliss, perfection and equipoise, free from it all.
But then again, these are just words.

At some point you are going to realize that you can't, as Brian, stay in the state of flow 24/7 and perpetualy do the right thing based on your intuition. You won't be able to make "spirituality serve you". Then comes the existential crisis. Then you begin detatching from the idea of "Brian doing this, Brian thinking that", well, you either detach or have it ripped away.

And to finish, I'd like to go back to my first post and clarify a few things:

There is no "world": This is refering to the way that we percieve a world "out there", sperate from us. I posit the world to be inside of my own consciousness, almost like an extension of my mind.

There is no "humanity": We share the same Self, not different ones. This is why we can have a collective experience in the waking state and this is why I can't be considered a solipsist. Everyone is an aspect of you, by healing yourself you heal "them".

"Enlightenment": Just a theory of what happens when people seem to become really funny, stop making sense and disappear. Presupposes existence, can't really be said to exist.

By choosing and actively seeing the world in this way, the experience can begin to grow.

". . . its really sickening": I thought some of the previous posts were pretty superficial, wanted more. Also good insurance to get a response.

O.K., one final thought. Have you ever looked into other "eastern" philosophies? Non-dual Saivism, Spanda, Tantra, Pratyabijna, Samkaya, or Advaita Vedanta? Do you have any knowledge of yoga, kundalini or ayurveda? Since you've never refered to anything other than Taoism, Zen and Tai Chi (ever hear of Ba Gua?) I'm wondering what sort of basis you have for catagorically denying that the ancient modalities can offer what you are looking for.

You raise some good points and questions.

I have nothing against Hemi-Sync or N.B., but this is not the Zen mindset, this a mental crutch, even worse, its a possible dependency. Great for accelerating learning, wrong for real progress in learning to still the mind. And it would seem to be strengthing your ego rather than freeing you.

Natural Brilliance, Mihalyi’s book on the Flow State, the spirituality of resistance mentioned above, or Anna Wise’s High Performance Mind are more what I follow now.

I have a vague familiarity with what self-actualization entails from high school sociology. I’m not sure, but I don’t think self-actualization and Natural Brilliance or living in the flow state is the same thing. Though I’m unfamiliar of the finer points of SA, I know that what I’m talking about is PURELY a state of consciousness—a brainwave profile on an EEG mind mirror. An alpha-theta dominance.

And I believe that Natural Brilliance does install what is known as the Zen Beginner’s Mind—which is only peripherally related to enlightenment. It’s essentially coming to the learning table with a clean slate, an ‘empty cup’ as they call it. You empty your mind of expectations and preconceived notions and start from the beginning, letting your intuition guide your decisions, learning from mistakes, honing your skills, essentially releasing, noticing, responding, and witnessing. Zen and the Art of Archery is a great classic on a German man who visits a Zen Monastery to learn the art and he undergoes the journey from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence over 7 years. Nice book—short and juicy.

I also have nothing against mental crutches. In fact, I love them, because they teach me how to walk faster by showing me something before my time. If I can experience something that is beyond my reach at this point in my natural development, then I can try and model or reproduce that feeling. NB employs NLP, which as far as I know, is not a crutch but a tool. Further, Binaural Beats are used to “entrain” the brainwaves. The waves effortlessly move toward the desired frequencies, and over time, have a tendency to move there naturally, on cue. I always use binaural beats as I study and notice that I don’t really need to anymore. I can just close my eyes, focus on my forehead, and take a deep breath and I’m good to go. Neither are crutches, but even if they were, I wouldn’t mind in the least as they are aiding me.

I know that in order to make the leap from the 6th bull to the 7th bull (if we can use that model), it requires something more—a leap of faith perhaps. You can’t get there with crutches like NB or BB’s. Even hemi-sync says, ‘we can take you there, but you’ve got to do the work’ or something like that.

It doesn't have to be like that, sitting in silence or standing like a tree for 20 years. This is your basic misconception, that true enlightenment will make your dreams, goals and interest in life void and require a lifetime of tedious discipline. If this is really your position, I disagree entirely.

Here is the MAIN reason why I don’t want to be liberated. That last sentence sounded rather strange.

I know that once you are liberated, you can pursue anything to the utmost. Thing is, I’ve never actual MET anyone who was truly liberated—10th bull. How many have attained this? Not ONE person in the thousands of people across the world in my tai chi lineage who has attained this level—there’ve been two in the past 50 years. How realistic a goal is this? (shouldn’t think in terms of goals, I know) How long does it take in your opinion? How close are you and how long have you been on the path? Decades, man. Years!!!

And, yes, my perception is that what is needed is SILENCE. An environment that is conducive to personal breakthrough—like a monastery, but not necessarily. There are so very many distractions all around us, I don’t have to look three feet and I see 5 things vying for my attention, saying, ‘I’m important! I’m important!’ How can I ever TRULY RELAX so totally in the midst of the myriad tensions of the western world?

IF, I could just drop everything and go to a monastery and do this thing right, I would. But the world tells me that I must do certain things in order to be successful and put food on the table.

At some point you are going to realize that you can't, as Brian, stay in the state of flow 24/7 and perpetually do the right thing based on your intuition. You won't be able to make "spirituality serve you". Then comes the existential crisis.

I STRONGLY disagree with this. Why do you say this? This doesn’t make any sense. Mihaly has proven with his weird method of pager statistics that “happiness comes from battling complexity while in an altered state of mind”. 25 years he spent gathering his data. And it’s true, people (westerners) are happiest when they’re weeding their gardens or listening to music or lost in sex or painting a model car or lost in the “process” of writing or lost in anything. “Lost” as in the ego has receded (if only temporarily). If you think of beta waves as the ego, they’ve receded and the slower, steadier alpha waves have taken their place. This experience can be measured on an EEG. NOW, why can’t you simply extend what he says, and Perpetually engage yourself in pursuing complexity? --add to that NLP and binaural beats (even as a crutch) and you’ve got yourself an entirely new mode of being.

That is what I refer to as an East/West balance. You’re not officially enlightened, because you still make distinctions, you’re still you when you stop working on the model train. And there IS certainly a difference between the ‘feeling’ of the Flow State versus actual Transcendence. But I don’t know that it is a functional one. Both states hold happiness and high performance in abundance. One is damn near impossible to attain, the other is as available as tap water.

You’re right in your guess that I’ve only solidly been into Zen and Taoism and their two modes of practice, ZaZen and Tai Chi. Why? I find that both approximate best what they try to explain. They are succinct and virtually wordless. How does Zen answer the question of ‘what is enlightenment?’ BOOM! He whacks you on the head! I found Indian stuff, even Buddhism to be far too lost in “Proper Nouns” and fanciful/mythological gilding. Further, Tai Chi is a great example of ‘in the world spirituality’, because you’re moving as you’re being mindful. I’ve dealt with kundalini and chakras before in my binaural training—mostly just had fun stimulating the energy though. I’m peripherally familiar with some Hindu concepts as well from a grand old philosopher known as Alan Watts—he brought knowledge of Taoism and Zen to the united states during the 50’s and 60’s. Great guy. He wrote a ton of books, each from a different eastern perspective. Someone once asked him why all his books seemed completely different from one another, and what they had in common.

He took his calligrapher’s pen and drew and empty circle with several lines pointing to it from all directions.

Essentially, all of these ancient disciplines and even some of the new ones are aiming at ONE thing, the unnamable. Does it really matter ‘how’ you get there? And does it matter if you’re ‘just visiting’ for practical reasons or there to stay?

To shift our energies toward more productive avenues, are you familiar with Kashmir Saivism or Trika philosophy? Might turn out to be a revealing rescource on sleep states and psychology. How about yogi nidra?