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Before I address it, I wanted to add that I read some of your other posts where you spoke about nutrition, diet etc... This is great and a subject I too have persued earnestly. My pursuit has led me to what I now recognize as the most comprehensive and incredible system of health in history . . . Ayurvedic medicine. You want to talk about something that will ****ing blow your mind! Unparalleled cleansing procedures and rejuvenation therapies that hold the promise of physical immortality. Concepts like Ojas (primal, subtle essense of vitality. Nourishes higher mental functions, immunity and integration of body, mind, spirit), Tejas (fire of the mind, fueled by Ojas), Rasayans (special herbal/mineral confections that nourish deep tissues like reproductive fluid, brain-nerve-marrow), Panchakarma (cleansing you as deeply as possible, into the marrow). . . God I could go on and on. I'll list some books and websites if you're interested, but maybe you are already familiar with it?

***And I believe that Natural Brilliance does install what is known as the Zen Beginner’s Mind—which is only peripherally related to enlightenment.***

I misinterpreted what you meant by "Zen mindset". You are probably correct in this assertion, but I have not been exposed to the Natural Brilliance Course. The beginners mind is definitly an advantage. No preconceptions, receptivity, getting out of your own way.

***If you think of beta waves as the ego, they’ve receded and the slower, steadier alpha waves have taken their place. This experience can be measured on an EEG. NOW, why can’t you simply extend what he says, and Perpetually engage yourself in pursuing complexity? --add to that NLP and binaural beats (even as a crutch) and you’ve got yourself an entirely new mode of being.***

Yes, most definitly a new mode of being, but I must assert, not a permanent one. Your claim seems a little shaky to me. "Life" will throw curve balls at you, your mind will always grow dissatisfied and you will grow dissatisfied with your mind. What happens if you lose your legs in an accident? Change your state with some binuaral beats? What happens if your mind starts rebelling, getting out of control? Mental illness is real and it can creep up on those exploring new states unguided. I know that from experience. Its not enough to start unleashing the powers of the mind. One needs to develop the ability to control the mind as well. The ability to still the mind is considered the most advanced mental ability for no small reason, check out Patanjali's yoga sutras. For someone as serious as you, I would think it a must.

"Perpetually engaging yourself in pursuing complexity" is exactly what most everyone already does, getting lost in the process of being such and such person leading such and such a life. This is bondage, wrong identification. Want to know what I think the most powerful mind-enhancing, genius-releasing techinque will turn out to be? Well, I'm going to tell you anyway. Its Wenger's putting on heads. Why? Because the core issue of our limitation and ignorance is the false notion of being limited and ignorant. There is a Spanda upaya (means to liberation) that is nearly identical. Its called Shaktopaya and is geared toward us thinkers. The method is to essentially start believing you are Shiva (Term denoting the highest reality or god) and that the world is simply a display of your own energy. The important aspect is to charge this belief with concsiousness, with self awareness. The most potent energy we have is the awarness that we are. "I am". This is the orgin and mother of it all. Fully developing this will, along the way, give you everything.

[This message has been edited by Pratibha (edited March 30, 2001).]

One question:

You say "I am looking for the practical benefits of enlightenment...without the enlightenment."

Just where is this I that benefits from enlightenment??

[This message has been edited by Free (edited March 30, 2001).]

How are your results with hemi-sync tapes? I think you've mentioned either here or on bwgen that you tried them. I have the catnapper tape and it seems to work, but not as perfect as I expected.

The first thing to understand is that sleep is not some activity of the mind or body. Sleep doesn't SERVE us as some sort of unconscious ability to rejuvenate our energies, at least thats not its direct purpose (actually I guess it depends on how you want to look at it because it does replenish us, by default). The "stages" of sleep are actually different modes of consciousness, but be sure and understand that the waking state is also a type of sleep. In Saivism, limited experience (withing the domain of duality-Maya-subject/object) can be catagorized by the following states: Waking (Beta), Dream (Alpha/Theta) and deep, dreamless (Delta). They blend into each other but there are periods of transision that hold much importance (doorways to turya). My understanding is that we are forced into these states based on our level of pranic energy, low energy=tiredness=dropping into alpha-theta-delta. Essentially we temporarily run out of the necessary organic energy to sustain waking state awarness.

Instead of asking why we need sleep, have you ever asked why we need to wake up? We are impelled by deep causal (karmic) desires for waking state experiences that continually thrust us back to this level of manifestion to have those experiences, i.e. transmigratory existence, birth and death (which sleep represents on a less permanent scale).

This is why I see the brain as a sort of reflecting device. It reflects the independent activities of our non-temporal/spacial minds (what we witness as the firing of neurons, EEG patterns, physical movement, etc...) as well as reflecting the reports of our senses and body to the mind. Mind is a complex, multi-level vibratory matrix of contracted and specialized consciousness. The brain is the physical organ it creates/evolves when it desires to have sensory experience in the material, collective dimension so many people call reality. This is actually just the waking state, another modification of consciousness directed at primary involvement with the senses where our psycho-physical organisim is most clealy defined (personality/body) and we are steeped in the highest degree of duality (internal subject vs. objective/external world). In the grand scheme its no more real than the dream or dreamless state. They are real though in the fact that they are valid experiences within universal consciousness, I don't subscribe to the "everything is some sort of unreal illusion" magazine.

So during the waking state the mind functions accordingly, classical physics, logic, language etc... to deal with this experience of duality. In the dream state (a whole new universe) the concrete structure of waking experience breaks down and our personalities/ego's are amorphous, subtle sensory experience (imagination) replaces the physical senses, irrationality prevails, and new dimensions of knowledge present themselves. In dreamless sleep, the mind stops its activity and only prana functions (keeping us alive and recharging us by default).

Far more important than these three states though, is the "fourth state", a state that transcends and permeates the other three. This is Turya, the state of the witnessing knower. To quote the Shiva Sutras, "The fouth state of consciousness is the everpresent witnessing consciousness of all the three. Even the three states of waking, dreaming, and profound sleep could not be experienced as three different states without a consciousness, a knower that knows all the three. That fourth state is, then, our real Self. It is the everpresent, immortal atman, the deathless, ceasless consciousness that witnesses all that we feel, think, and do. It is the changeless, permanent I that witnesses all our changing I's." With this said, let me confuse everyone by stating that Saivism further defines three phases of turya, "In the turiya state, there are only three phases, viz. tury-jagrat, turya-svapna and turya-susupti.

"The turya-jagrat is that state in which mind as we know it retires completely. Its function ceases and the Super-mind becomes active. . . In this state the activity of the normal mind stops, and unmana or Super-mind supervenes.

"Tury-svapna is that state in which the Yogi crosses the boundary of limitation (of knowledge) and enters the region of unlimitedness (of knowledge). Hence in the tantras, it is called ananta, i.e. unlimited.

"Tury-susupti is known as sarvartha in the tantras, because in this state every thing appears as a from of divine Shakti."

When this state becomes permanent it is called Turyatita, the state of fullest realization. "In it even the distinction between transcendent and the immanent disappears. To one who has entered this state, everything is Shiva."

[This message has been edited by Pratibha (edited March 30, 2001).]

It seems to me that the pursuit of all of these states is merely a distraction from what is and only serves to add layers of obscuration to the truth?

My claim is that through NLP, Brainwave Entrainment, and Smart Drugs, I can INSTANTLY and CONSTANTLY put myself in a state of consciousness that is associated with geniushood, efficient and effective action, and resulting effusive joy.
As I see it, there are three types of people.

Bull #1 -- Pure Ego -- Lost in illusion -- Pure West

The meaning of life is simple gratification and avoiding bodily and mental pain. This is the default state for sheepy citizenry.

Bull #6 -- Tamed Ego -- Using illusion -- East/West Combo

The meaning of life is the pursuit of complexity or order. We are here to fight chaos in all its forms, wherever it lurks. The aforementioned state of consciousness and the simple methods used to enter it, serve toward this pursuit.

Bull #9 -- Transcended Ego -- No more illusion -- Pure East

These say that the meaning of life is to experience truth or pure being before your body ceases. This takes a very long time to become. From there, you have the choice to either share your light with others or stay your cave and bliss out.

Now, what I’m doing is using the ole “price to value ratio” to comparison shop. Which option yields the greatest value at the cheapest price? My estimation is the second.

To get from point A to point B, you can walk, you can drive a Yugo, or you can drive a Lamborghini. Anyone can walk as they are. I find driving a Yugo more efficient than walking and quite a bargain compared to the Lamborghini. I don’t have the time to earn the money to buy a Lamborghini—it’s not within my budget at the moment, though, of course, we’d all rather drive the Lamborghini. (This analogy assumes the purpose of enlightenment is to help people and not just to become enlightened. If the purpose of life were just to become enlightened and bliss-out, there’d be no call to move from point A to point B.)

There are a few holes in the analogy... but you get the point

***Pratibha, wouldn't you say that the "fourth state" is not really a "State" at all but rather the ground of being itself? If it was a state, then it would just be another object to pursue.***

Right on! Its not a "state" per say. Its not even really "fourth". We must apply these terms owing to the limitations of language. And you are very perseptive to note that it can't be persued. Turya is eternally present and we can only prepare ourselves for its reception, its sudden emergence so to speak.

***It seems to me that the pursuit of all of these states is merely a distraction from what is and only serves to add layers of obscuration to the truth?***

Whether a pursuit is a distraction or an aid really comes down to a person's understanding, what perspective they bring to the pursuit. One cannot cause, force or create Realization, he/she can only prepare. And in preparing, he will have to pursue many things. One of the biggest steps in this "quest" is to stop seeing the world as an obstacle. Anything one does in this world can be used to move closer to the Truth. Furthermore, the only things that really obscure this Truth is wrong thinking and getting attached to these "limited states". But, with that said, yeah-so much is a distraction, its easy to get diverted and lost. . . must always keep priorities straight.

Brian,

You may be looking for Enlightenment but just don't want to admit it. Then again you sincerely may not be. Either way is fine, no problem. With this understanding I am willing to redirect our discussion toward other, more "pragmatic" subjects: health, Ayurveda, sleep. Are you interested, or should we keep riding the Bull? By the way, I would really appreciate your recommendations on some good binaural beat tapes (Hemi-Sync, Holosync...) or something better and newer. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Pratibha (edited March 30, 2001).]

I think we've both had enough bull this week to last a lifetime! lol.

recommendations on some good binaural beat tapes

What results do you desire?

If you want to enhance your photoreading ability, go for hemi-sync's SuperLearning.

For something totally 'out there' go for Vantage Quest's Harmonic Matrix Creativity CD. This CD sucks ideas out of your brain like a vaccum cleaner. VERY powerful.

To my utter dismay, I've yet to come across a good preset/CD for sleep reduction. I'm more or less shooting in the dark, trying to create the best preset I can on my own.

I didn't see a Hemi-Sync tape entitled "superlearning". Does it go by another name? Perhaps "Baroque Garden" or "Enstein's Dream"? Unfortunately they don't tell you exactly what frequency they help elicit and I imagine a primarily alpha state is ideal for photoreading (my prime interest here).