Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ PhotoReading, Memory Optimizer About the War...

astrowill wrote "Personally, I don't care what Germany thinks because they have no reason to like us. The reason people are mad at France, though, is that they owe us a lot--if it weren't for America, they'd be speaking German."

WRONG!

If there is any people in the world that should be happy for the fall of the nazi-regime, it should be the germans. It is not long ago that germany agreed on the "war on terrorism" because of what they called "limitless solidarity" with america because of their liberation.

They were servants of america then but they will not be it again this time.

About this war, of course not only france and germany oppose the war. and there are also more countries than russia and china...the entire world is against the war. Some governments have been bought but the people is not for sale!

France doesnt owe us diddly ... If it werent for them we wouldnt have even been there in the World Wars. There was a little thing called The Revolutionary War ... Read YOUR history book Astrowill

Alright, so we were even on the favors--1 to 1. It's still unfair that they stabbed us in the back. Around the time Res. 1441 was presented to the U.N., Colin Powell asked France, "now if Iraq violates this and we have to use force, you're not going to oppose it, right?" France said "nope, we're with you." Now we know they were lying.

I don't know all that much about the war, so excuse my ignorance, but IMO, we don't need ANYONE'S help. We, again, IMO have one of the largest armies in the world--probably about 2nd, or 3rd, behind China--and we can fight this war on our own.

George Washington, in his closing address, said that America should stay away from all alliances, temporary and permenant. I agree.

I would be ashamed of my country if the UN-HQ had to cover the "la guernica" when my secretary of state was visiting the building

Have you americans ever thought about WHY france, germany and russia so strongly oppose the war? Do you think that it's some kind of european rebellion against the powerful and succesful big brother? Wrong! There must be a connection between these three countries...
What can it be???
THEY KNOW WHAT WAR IS LIKE! they have suffered and had their countries destroyed by war. you americans who live now have never experienced war on your own soil. war is not something you see on tv. war is more than that! war is havin your legs cut off by grenades! war is waking up to the sound of sirens in the middle of the night. and believe me, there is no beautiful wagner music in iraq now!

we europeans care about international law and rights and europeans want to get a true picture of the war and watch american tv to get the american story too but do any americans watch european tv (except BBC) to get a balanced view of their own propaganda? do americans really believe that "embedded" journalists can give them the whole truth?

don't believe that you are better than anyone else, america. i don't want to live in a world where the usa decides who they want to rule my country. neither are we, europe, better than anyone else but some of us have woken up and we know that our decent american friends will follow our example, like they did during the vietnam war.

WAKE UP AMERICA!

OK. I confess, I was asking leading questions-- the intent was to inspire thinking outside of the narrow tunnell which the media, in close collusion with the bush administration and his cronies, have been presenting us.

Allow me to detail just some of the lies which we have been told: Colin Powell went on TV and stated that a tape, made by Bin Laden, "proved" the connection between Iraq and Al-Qaida-- and hence our emotions about 911. It turned out that the tape said nothing of the sort. George Bush, when talking about this "coalition" of "allies" which supported us failed to mention that a) they were only the people we threatened to cut foreign aid to, such as El Salvador (-- which, I can speak from voluminous research I did on their terrorist problems-- who only helped us because they are in the throes of a post-extremist, still pretty extreme, right-wing government, the ARENA. This goverment, rather much like columbia, is given our military aid to turn around and terrorize their own people. And in the case of Columbia it is part of our blatant war-on-some-drugs) and a few other small nations in similar positions. I concede that Saddam is a criminal, I said so in my first post. What about our own war criminal, Barry McCaffery himself, who slaughtered thousands of retreating Iraqis in the last Gulf War after the peace-fire was signed? I'm well aware of the few warring tribes in Afghanistan, but their current leader is certainly democratic in intent. In Iraq, who knows?
I'm well aware of at least one of the motives for the Franco-Germanic and the Russo-Chinese opposition: oil. In fact, Russia came out publically saying "how dare the US force democratic principles on the rest of the world?!". Nobody blinked an eye. Hell, I thought that Russia was supposed to be democratic now. No, I think that their fascist undertones are curious and I intend to investigate their current political situation in more detail-- harkening back to the oddball circumstances which Putin and Bush seemed to become closely acquainted, and Putin even went on American public radio.
How do you know that Bush is making any sacrifice? The American Public has not been given any information as to his intent once Saddam falls-- except vague references to having a "free Iraq", why couldn't he just say "democracy". Personally, I think that it is possible that this is Bush's plan for economic recovery: gain leverage on Iraqi oil, which as you point out would annoy France and Germany. This fits into the public misleading category.
The Archetypal George Bush speech:
1) Publically lie
2) Patronize all people demonstrating intelligence, the "little father" approach
3) Pray to (christian) God
As to being privy to information that we are not, personally that scares me. Look at George Bush's domestic policies-- he's trying to be the next Reagan, who almost destroyed this country. Hell, I think he might even be worse than his father-- who conveniently was head of the CIA during their most infamous period.
All my original points stand. (Also, given the Office of Information Awareness, I am almost positive that these messages I have written are being archived in some government folder, to be used against me should my dissident activity present itself too publically).
K. "Master-Mind Trickster, and Mask-Addict" O

If you go far back enough... every country has blood on their hands.

So it's funny seeing people put in bold letters "Read the History Books". If you dig enough you can satisfy any argument. Then you are ideological trench warfare... that's why I say, "F*** It"

Humphrey www.not5150.com

War is terrible.... but this article is really interesting.....
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/21/1047749939847.html

"Have you thought why France, Germany, and Russia is so strongly opposed to the war?"

Sure I have. Have YOU thought why Australia, England, Spain, Poland, Albania, Romania, Czech Republic, Portugal, Italy, Turkey, Japan, South Korea, Denmark, Netherlands, Hungaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Macedonia, Azerbaijan, AFGHANISTAN, Georgia, Philippines, Uzbekistan, Colombia, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Iceland, and Singapore are FOR THE WAR?

Hey, my list beats your list: I win.

What's that you say? Not enough countries? There's MORE:

Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Belgium, Croatia, Egypt, Greece, Germany, Cyprus, and Israel.

Why was it France, Germany, and Russia were against the war you say?

quote:

---

Have you americans ever thought about WHY france, germany and russia so strongly oppose the war?...What can it be???
THEY KNOW WHAT WAR IS LIKE!

---

And none of the countries for the war HAVE? When did France have their last war? WWII? Germany? Russia's last war was the Chechnya, and that technically wasn't even a war.

There's something to be said when a lot of the countries on the list supporting the US are in the middle east. I trust their opinion of Saddam Hussein more than Europe's, United State's, and Australia's combined.

How 'bout that I see less protesters against the war in Iraq than I do in the states?

Let's COMPLETELY IGNORE the weapons of mass destruction argument right now (which is key, but for argument's sake let's focus on the topic of regime change), and look at a quick Saddam rundown:

Saddam has:
-killed his own son-in-law
-gassed his own people
-starved villages to death

If the media had focused on this differently at another time, people would have been upset that the US didn't help the Iraqi people after Desert Storm.

Again, this is focusing on the argument for regime change, which, in my opinion, is the WEAKEST argument for war.

-Ramon http://razor.ramon.com

PS - "Going to war without France is like going hunting without your accordian."

[This message has been edited by razordu30 (edited March 22, 2003).]

First of all, we know what saddam has done and everybody knows that he deserves to be in prison (n.b. not to die) but it does not belong in the modern civilisation to assassinate other countrie's leaders, no matter how cruel they may be. There are other ways. why not be more careful about who you sell your weapons to? europe and america have supplied saddam with weapons for years. I have a proposal: the western world should show the world that they don't accept the method of war to solve conflicts by stopping all weapon export to all countries. that would prevent a lot of cruel wars. if they continue like they do now, the world wil not change. tomorrow there will be new saddams and kims who are fighting with the weapons we sold to them today.

just for the record: many of the countries razardu30 listed are dictatorships like iraq and their leaders have committed crimes comparable to saddam's. usa should be more selective when they choose who they want to cooperate with. and why is it so incredible that the afghanistan (-puppet government) supports the us?

and here comes the most important: how many of the governments you've listed have the support of their own people?

now after a few days of war, the pentagon has to confess that the iraqis actually are fighting and not just surrendering. must have been a great chock for them that everyone doesn't welcome them. surprise! everybody does not want to become an american. you wanna know why?
american arrogance. the arrogance that make them intervene in other countries. the arrogance that makes them believe that it's everybody's highest goal to become an american. the arrogance that makes them sacrifice innocent civilians to get control over the middle east.

please don't get me wrong. i don't blame americans, i blame their government. hopefully, the next election will show mr bush that the americans are not as war loving as he is.