Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Paraliminals, Paraliminal Resets, Paraliminal Walkabouts, Natural Brilliance, Sonic Access Subliminals/Paraliminals together?

Famous Bandler story. Richard Bandler recorded hundreds of suggestions about the listener being stressed out, the world going to Hell in a handbasket, everything colapsing and an increase in overwhelming stress. He then covered the suggestions with ocean waves and released them to the Stress Institute with the cover story that they were subliminal relaxation tapes. He released them for free, with the stipulation that they could not be duplicated, and that the users had to return them after one month. Without exception, the listeners refused to return them and stated that they had the best month of their lives.

The conclusion that Bandler reached was that one audible lie ("this is a relaxation tape") was better than a hundred unheard suggestions.

Perhaps 21st century subliminal technology is much better than that of last century. I would never dream of telling anyone how to invest their self-improvement budget.

Hi Kaiden. I'm not sure if that last post was meant to be for me or Alex, as it doesn't seem to adequately answer the points any of us raised.

As I haven't heard of this experiment by Bandler, could you please give me some details? I'd like to know the following:

1. Who monitored and controlled the experiment?
2. How many tapes were given out?
3. How can this be considered a test of subliminal suggestions when (a) a conscious input was given (b) ocean waves do have a relaxing effect?

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaiden:
The conclusion that Bandler reached was that one audible lie ("this is a relaxation tape") was better than a hundred unheard suggestions.

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Indeed. I had thought we had already agreed on the difference between conscious and unconscious suggestions. Since there was conscious input as well, all this shows that conscious input may override unconscious input, which you yourself have said, but it does not prove that unconscious input has no effect, which is what I presume you were pointing out. From Alex's post:

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexK:
A common belief regarding consciousness is that conscious perception enables one to use the perceived information to act on the world and to produce effects on the world (cf. Searle, 1992). In contrast, unconsciously perceived information leads to more automatic reactions that cannot be controlled by the perceiver. This distinction between the active and passive consequences of perception has been captured in a number of experiments demonstrating that consciously perceived stimuli allow subjects to follow instructions, whereas unconsciously perceived stimuli lead to much more automatic reactions (e.g., Debner & Jacoby, 1994; Merikle & Joordens, 1997; Merikle, Joordens, & Stolz, 1995).

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You still remain on the grounds of auditory subliminals, which does not answer the issue on which you challenged me in which I brought up photoreading.

Also, if I got you right, and you're saying that auditory subliminals don't work, then you appear to be challenging yet another product - holosync. Perhaps you could comment on this?

Furthermore:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaiden:
Perhaps 21st century subliminal technology is much better than that of last century.

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If you aren't sure, then why are you bringing up old experiments and ignoring the recent and ongoing university research brought up by Alex?

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaiden:
I would never dream of telling anyone how to invest their self-improvement budget.

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Oh? To my understanding, that is precisely what you did in your first post in this thread. Just one other example:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaiden:
This may not be the type of solution you're looking for, but 5-HTP has really helped me a bit with the ultra-anxiety. Combined with the Natural Brilliance Generator, it allows one to seriously change situations for the better. Just make sure that you don't combine 5-HTP with St. John's Wort. The effects are a combination of insomnia with the don't-give-a-hoot attitude of "Office Space."

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The above is from the following thread: http://www.learningstrategies.com/forum/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000549.html
There are many more.

KWLee

Kaiden,
The Bandler experiment is interesting but also meaningless without specific details on how he actually constructed both his tape and his test. It's not enough to just merely submerge a bunch of affirmations beneath a masking sound. Go too deep underneath that sound and the affirmations become useless.

I KNOW subliminal tapes have worked for me but definitely not all of them! The very best I've yet seen are the Eldon Taylor tapes. I do NOT believe however that these are subliminal tapes in the truest, purest sense of the word (and neither does Eldon for that matter---he makes that point very clear)but I am absolutely clear about the fact that they work.
Eldon himself says that about 1 out of every 5 listeners will have a placebo effect but it's what happens with the other 80% that spells the difference between his tapes and also-rans.
For a short time (very short), I worked for a subliminal company here in Michigan and while there were plenty of aspects of their tapes that left me less than impressed, there was one demo recording that I found very telling. The whole basis of their tapes was to have lifelike recordings. They used a $5000 mike called Dolly which made every single sound absolutely and totally lifelike. On the demo, among other things, was the sound of a dentist drill. The thing was so real that I actually got upset with to stomach for over 20 minutes!;0)) However, I felt other aspects of their scripting and recording were not as well advanced.
I'll also admit that I, myself, with the exception of E. Taylor's tapes, have gone on to affirmation and hynpnotic type tapes. I also make my own. I've made subliminals for my own use for about 11-12 years now and I've had a variety of results with them (some topics like relaxation and stop procrastination get much faster results than do others like` self-esteem and weight loss to name a couple). I've also made what I call Flood Voice tapes which are 3-5 layers of my own voice doing different affirmations in a round-robin sequencing and also disjointed sequencing. In the background, I put a sound pattern or baroque music but you can hear all the voices. I play them at a fairly low level so that the the voices are not annoying. If there's tension, the volume is too loud. With these recordings I often just go about my business. Sometimes I'll notice and affirmation but for everyone I might notice, there are dozens and dozens going in unnoticed. ALL affirmations are positive and short. The tapes are not pretty but they ARE powerful! Sometimes I'll have one layer of voices done in whisper. Can only do one layer in whisper because I like to keep each layer clear and succinct.
Kaiden, there IS one bogus presupposition that the subliminal companies have gone unchallenged on through the years (correct me if I'm wrong) and that's this notion that since your conscious mind very often will reject contradictory input, then the ONLY way to receive new input and thus change behavior is to have the input coming into the subconscious FROM a subsconscious medium (i.e.subliminals). I have yet to see anyone challenge that notion and it IS bogus! If that was the case, then affirmation tapes could NEVER work and yet we know they do (even if sometimes slow). That there are FASTER ways to create positive change is one thing but the subliminal marketers make it all too often sound that the ONLY effective way to create change is to use subliminals. This notion is of course, patently false. My take is that there are SOME good, effective subliminal tapes out there. I KNOW this from both positive and negative experience. They DO have a place in self-improvement because they can be used where hypnotic tapes CAN'T (i.e. while driving, using machinery, etc.).

Btw, thanks for filling me in on the popcorn and coca-cola. Always good to keep abreast of things! I happened to be at Ft. Lee for training about 22 years ago. I wonder if the movie house I attended was the same one referred to! ;0))

I was directed here from KWLee in the PhotoReading forum, because I have ignored this thread after my last post to it.

To answer the specific question:
"If you aren't sure, then why are you bringing up old experiments and ignoring the recent and ongoing university research brought up by Alex?"

Because of the amount of self-help scams out there, I advise caution on everything and will often come across as actively hostile. However, I will not think any less of a person who ignores my advice, unless they have actively sought it out from me personally. I am not infalible, and if my writing conveys the attitude that I am, I am sorry for presenting myself in that light. If I were to recount all my errors in judgement, I would not have space in all the servers in the world to store the text. However, I am a very good backgammon player.

In a forum discussing behavioral change, I will make suggestions as to things which have worked for me. As you can see from this very thread, others are making suggestions as to things that have worked for them. For example, the Eldon Taylor method of embedding suggestions has been emperically verified, and is used by both CentrePoint and the U.S. Military, and thus when the topic of subliminals comes up others are sure to mention his name.

I haven't studied any of Alex's research because PhotoReading allows one to have the level of comprehension you need in the time allowed. I am not going to purchase any subliminal tapes, nor am I going to listen to any receeved from the library, I have no current reason to persue the research. As I said, the technology may have improved. Although I did look up the details of the Bandler experiment, my computer crashed before I could bookmark the URL. I've also found other sites dealing with university experiments on subliminal tapes specifically effecting memory, and perhaps cognative skills. There were three groups, from what I remember - one group was told "this is a subliminal tape to improve memory" and given said tape, one was told the same thing and given a tape with no subliminal messages, the last group group was given a subliminal tape, but the instructions were just "listen to this." Both groups were tested on memory before and after, and were asked how they felt about their ability to remember. The groups that were told they had a subliminal tape reported a perceived increase in memory ability, but the testing showed no improvement in either group. I wish I could remember which university, or find the URL, but it was probably over a year ago... I think it was the Skeptic Dictionary, but I might be wrong.

I just hate to see people ripped off.

As a P.S., I usually don't reply to anything AlexK posts, because I consider him an authority on the subjects he posts on. Even where we disagree, I respect his position and consider it a valid interpretation of the data available. I thought I should state this explicitly, as my active non-persuit of his pointers to research may be seen as disrespect, although none is intended. The last thing I want to do is be seen as attacking someone who's opinions and advice I actively seek out.

And, as another P.S., to be perfectly honest I see subliminals as the ultimate giving-up of one's personal power. It's like saying, "I am powerless to make a self-directed change." I like paraliminals because although they are passive-listening methods of performing changework, almost every tape I've seen requires the listener to state the nature of the change they want. Placing the other-than-conscious mind as the ultimate source of our behavior is to ignore the power of free, conscious will... perhaps to surrender it.

Consciousness simply means the power to make a choice. That is the difference between instinct and will. We have conscious minds in order to make decisions. The other-than-conscious mind gives us the decisions we are able to choose from. I use hypnotic techniques to generate more choices, not to limit them to what the hypnotist wants me to choose even when that hypnotist is myself.

I hope I have clarified any confusion I may have caused in my earlier posts. Thank you.

Thanks Everyone

Dredging up an old thread here, but is anoyone here familiar with the Silent Subliminals technology? This technology encodes the subliminal messages at 14.8KHz, well above the range of human hearing, but at a range that still attenuates in the ear. The theory is that the brain (the subconcious) "hears" the vibration in the inner ear, but you don't conciously hear it because its outside the range of normal hearing.

This method is supposed to be vastly superior to the usual method of playing the subliminals at low volume and "masking" them with music or nature sounds. Any comments are welcome.

P.S. Anyone know how the Eldon Taylor tapes are made?