Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Paraliminals, Paraliminal Resets, Paraliminal Walkabouts, Natural Brilliance, Sonic Access A.Greenwald's researches- subliminal tapes- discus

Hi. The aim of this message is not to provoke, it's to start a good discussion and to let other people that are well informed about the subject to share their ideas and maybe present other researches. I'm a young psychologist interested in different areas of psychology. I've found the Anthony Greenwald's report from his experiment on subliminal tapes (Greenwald and others, 1991). In his experiment took part 78 persons (age: 18-60). Firstly the participants completed tests to measure their self-esteem and memory (three memory tests). Then they were divided in three groups (two experimental groups- the first used self-esteem subliminal tapes and and the second that used memory subliminal tapes regurarly for 5 weeks; control group listened a normal tape). After this period the tests didn't show any (!) objective results. The only results was a placebo effect, people from the experimental groups believed in the effects of the tapes, but tests didn't prove any improvements.

If you know any others good researches on the subject, please let us know. It's important.

Soc

Hey Soc,

Yeah, I would agree that this entire industry feeds off of people's subjectives beliefs regarding perceived benefits. Yes, you may call it 'placebo effect," but doctors have been prescribing placebos for ages, when they know that's all the patient really needs. I think we use the term "placebo effect" only to describe the power of human belief, and it does have a very powerful effect. Some may argue that there is no quantitative, objective evidence of benefit, but the fact that people PERCEIVE there to be a benefit may be all that is important.

After all, one can equally argue (with fairly convincing reasoning and evidence) that there really is no supernatural deity/deities in our reality, and yet, look at how persistant and pervasive is the human need for religion. It makes them FEEL better about their condition, in every sense, a huge placebo effect. Are spiritual leaders guilty of conspiring to deceive the human race? In some sense, yes, but in another sense, they are providing a service to help their fellow human in their limited and needy state. So it is with the "self-improvement" industry.

The fact that companies like Learning Strategies Corporation (LSC) has prospered for so long testifies to this human need to reinforce positive beliefs. Personally, I have benefited from many of their products, the ones which appealed to my needs and sensibilities at the time. But I've also stayed away (far away) from other products, because I know they are out (far out) of my realm of belief, and so would not benefit me anyway. Nevertheless, I have to acknowledge and respect the testimonies of other people here who seem to derive great satisfaction and results from those kinds of products. As long as such products are giving them the tools to become better people, and as long as they are willing to pay for such products, then placebo-vendors like LSC have legitimate purposes in our society. (There are many other things in this world which one can take issue against as being much more harmful to us.)

There are definitely times when a truly effective drug or therapy is necessary to properly treat a condition, but sometimes, a placebo is all that is needed.

Best,

HF

Yes. But what is important in the experiment I refer to is that so called placebo effect changed nothing in the objective tests. The belief in the effectiveness of the tapes remained only a pure belief, tests didn't show any real difference.

Soc

To be precise, the experimentators checked the placebo effect in this experiment in the following way: one group receives the self-esteem subliminal tapes (they think they were given the memory subliminal tapes), another group the receives memory tapes (they are convinced that they get the self-esteem tapes). Just to be precise.

If they are here psychologists and other persons that know different researches and know the subject, it could be interesting.

friendly

Soc

One point is that this company has a forum. Most company's (like a subliminal tape company) do not have a forum. They only have testimonials. So to me a forum says a lot more than a testimonial on a url to help them sell their products. I guess to find out if something has been only a placebo lies in the results. I think a placebo would not be so dramatic... I'm sure many people here have examples that are more than a placebo effect. In fact when I have done subliminal tapes from another company I had no results from it. I am hoping this company will be better for me and I'm looking forward to finding out. To me any result is not placebo.

scooter~*

Hi Soc,

I understand that the research may not show any objective benefit, and yet
people still perceive a benefit. Yet, this phenomenon occurs over and
over in real life.

Have you ever heard of the girl in Russia who claimed she could see into
people and make accurate medical diagnoses? She is called "The Girl with
X-ray Vision," and her name is Natasha Demkina. She even went to New York
to be tested by a team of scientists, who conducted a rigorous test of her
ability. The final analysis suggested she did not actually have an
accurate ability to see inside of people, and yet, all the patients she
interacted with came out of their experiences perceiving that she really
did help them. The same kind of things happens with other kinds of
"faith-healing." There are many documentaries which follow patients
before, during, and after encounters with faith-healers, and even though
in the end, there is no objective long-term benefit (and in many cases,
worsening of the condition), nevertheless, patients perceive to have
benefited from the experience.

The human mind is a funny thing. Yes, even when there is no objective
benefit, people will still insist they were benefited. Scientifically,
we may call this a "placebo effect," ok, but to the patients, it's real
... EVEN THOUGH there may not be an actual benefit!

Well, as I've always said, humans have an infinite capacity for
self-deception. We want to believe so many things, whether or not they are
objectively true.

You can perform your research studies which "prove" there is no benefit,
but however many such studies are published, the self-improvement industry
will still thrive. The industry thrives on human weakness, and one of
these weaknesses is the relentless need to improve one's self and one's
condition in life, even if the benefits are merely perceived, and not
real. Most people will still want to try the products, and many will
still claim benefits. In an ideal, rational society, objective studies
such as yours will convince people to stop wasting their time, energy, and
resources on "snake oil." But society is neither ideal nor very rational.

There is a saying: "Selling lies makes you rich. Selling truth makes you
poor."

HF

for me, I think if it works it will be more than a placebo effect. I do believe if it works there is something to it...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14309026/

Recent research

Quote:

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For years, scientists have looked at the placebo effect as just a figment of overactive patient imaginations. Sure, dummy medications seemed to curb epileptic seizures, lower blood pressure, soothe migraines and smooth out jerky movements in Parkinson's — but these people weren't really better. Or so scientists thought.

Now, using PET scanners and MRIs to peer into the heads of patients who respond to sugar pills, researchers have discovered that the placebo effect is not "all in patients' heads" but rather, in their brains. New research shows that belief in a dummy treatment leads to changes in brain chemistry.

"There have always been people who have said that we could make ourselves better by positive thinking,” says Dr. Michael Selzer, professor of neurology at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. “After pooh-poohing this for years, here are studies that show that our thoughts may actually interact with the brain in a physical way."

New insights into how placebos work may even help scientists figure out how to harness the effect and teach people to train their own brains to help with healing.

---

http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524911.600

{quote] 1 The placebo effect

DON'T try this at home. Several times a day, for several days, you induce pain in someone. You control the pain with morphine until the final day of the experiment, when you replace the morphine with saline solution. Guess what? The saline takes the pain away.

This is the placebo effect: somehow, sometimes, a whole lot of nothing can be very powerful. Except it's not quite nothing. When Fabrizio Benedetti of the University of Turin in Italy carried out the above experiment, he added a final twist by adding naloxone, a drug that blocks the effects of morphine, to the saline. The shocking result? The pain-relieving power of saline solution disappeared.

So what is going on? Doctors have known about the placebo effect for decades, and the naloxone result seems to show that the placebo effect is somehow biochemical. But apart from that, we simply don't know.

Benedetti has since shown that a saline placebo can also reduce tremors and muscle stiffness in people with Parkinson's disease (Nature Neuroscience, vol 7, p 587). He and his team measured the activity of neurons in the patients' brains as they administered the saline. They found that individual neurons in the subthalamic nucleus (a common target for surgical attempts to relieve Parkinson's symptoms) began to fire less often when the saline was given, and with fewer "bursts" of firing - another feature associated with Parkinson's. The neuron activity decreased at the same time as the symptoms improved: the saline was definitely doing something.

We have a lot to learn about what is happening here, Benedetti says, but one thing is clear: the mind can affect the body's biochemistry. "The relationship between expectation and therapeutic outcome is a wonderful model to understand mind-body interaction," he says. Researchers now need to identify when and where placebo works. There may be diseases in which it has no effect. There may be a common mechanism in different illnesses. As yet, we just don't know.

---

Source link above.13 things that do not make sense March 2005

Then there is the ritual involved with prescribing the placebo. Sham acupuncture beats a sham pill in decreasing the pain. [from Harvard Medical School Feb 2006]

Of course Paraliminals are not subliminal. Everything is perfectly audible and in the normal hearing range.

Alex

Look up Dr. Eldon Taylor and his research with subliminal technology. He also has a patented technology called Whole Brain and in doing research you will see how his subliminal programs work, also call "unsubliminals" and why others fail to even have the messages even regsiter in the mind. His subliminals are the only ones that i trust and received good results from two programs that i've used. A couple are available for free.

He is in the forefront of subliminal technology and research. You can find downloadable books and articles on the site www.innertalk.com or www.mindmint.com.

I hope you will find some interesting information which i know you will! Good luck in your research.

Yes, Alex- very interesting- and it is nice to see more research being done in that area..

Ever since reading Earnest Rossi and David Cheek in the late 80s.I wondered why the placebo effect is not considred a valid treatment aproach!

Both are respected medical researchers and were students of Erickson. They went as far as measuring neuropeptides and other chemical changes in the blood of patients in different "trance" states, proving that it is not only a subjective experience. So this has been known and published for almost 20 years. Why has it been ignored as a treatment method?

My guess is that the dominating force in modern medicine- the pharmaceutical companies, cannot control it (Patent) so it has not been encouraged in research or practice...

When looking at researchers findings, it is sometimes revealing to see who, if anyone, funded the research...(The invalid study a few years ago that "found" Vitamin C to "dangerously thicken the arterial walls" comes to mind...) there was major drug company money behind it...(the research was later quietly discredited, after the study made noisy headlines around the world...)