Posted By: JustMe Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/24/03 08:17 PM
I'm fairly new to all this and need some guidance to help me make a decision. I've been going through the forum articles for the last several days and am confused by all the publicity hype on the various websites. Has anyone tried both programs and what would you suggest a complete should go for? Which produces the greatest benefits or are the 2 completely different and what is their overlap.

Many thanks





Posted By: tool Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/24/03 11:39 PM
I've done both programs and am currently on AL3(0.5).They are completely different programs.Centerpointe uses binaural beats to entrain your brainwaves to a specific frequency.What this does is overload the brain or stresses the brain to where it has to reorganize to a higher functioning order,i.e; it can handle exterior stress easier.Natural Brilliance uses hypnosis and NLP to train you to deal with stuck states in a 4 step process,Release,Notice, Respond,Witness.Basically when you come up against something you percieve as being stressful you go into the 4 step process and proceed through the area that once caused a problem ,it's quick and efficient and has helped me overcome a few obstacles.Centerpointe is a long term commitment and is not for everyone,results come slowly over a period of time, the entire program can take up to 9 years to complete, but they say it's worth it which is why I continue to use it and I have seen a gradual increased ability to handle stress.Hope this helps.





Posted By: JJWjr Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/25/03 03:30 AM
I like tool have been been a participant of both programs. I am currently finishing up Awakening Level 1 with Centerpointe. To give you a reference of time; this is the beginning of my 10th month. It took me 4 months to complete the Awakening Prologue, (level 1) and when I complete Awakening Level 1, month 10 will have concluded. The most noticeable side effect of the Centerpointe program has been improved awareness. There are circumstances presently that exist where I come to the realization that if the result I produce is not productive I quickly notice it and make the appropriate adjustment. This benefit hasn't been major by any stretch of the imagination. The process has been gradual yet noticeable. In order to complete the entire program it will require a several thousand dollar investment over a 5-10 year period, depending upon the urgency of the participant to finish. In fact, according to the creator of the Centerpointe program, Bill Harris, most people never complete it because according to him, "people eventually become content with themselves." Or in my case, most likely will not make that type of a financial committment. In addition, there really is little if any effort that on the part of the individual. You simply place the stereo headphones on your head and let the binaural beats do their thing.

As for Photoreading, only have 5 weeks experience. I look at PR as a continuation of improving awareness. But I credit Centerpointe with helping me to recognize other beneficial programs out there such as those provided by LSC.





Posted By: JJWjr Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/25/03 03:34 AM
I meant to include Natural Brilliance in the last sentence of the previous post as well. Sorry, I got carried away with the rhetoric.





Posted By: JustMe Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/25/03 10:40 AM
Thank you for your replies. I now have a better idea. The holosync program really excites me because of the proven technology and immediate results however, I feel that it is bit of a con to get people onto a program that would last so many years and cost thousands of $$$'s. Are all the subsequent programs identical to the previous ones except for some “frequency” changes? I know several people such as Brian649 who has managed to suss out a really elegant solution to getting round this problem by using Brain Wave Generator software which you can purchase for a mere $40 in comparison. I’m new to all this and don’t have the time and know-how to tinker and experiment and that’s why a solution out of box is so appealing. However, I don’t like the idea of being committed to CP for so many years but would want to see go all the way if I started (and could afford it) to see what the maximum end results possibly achievable were. This is where NB is more appealing. It is more concise and sounds great and also seems to be based on proven technologies such as Suggestopaedia.

So my question now is do you recommend using NB with holosync technology (eg using BWgen) for better results and leaving it at that, or getting the base CP program and then modifying that in some way (how?) to enable you to essentially get round the problem of having to spend thousands of $$$’s in follow courses? I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has managed to do this successfully and how they’ve achieved it.

Many thanks!






Posted By: AlexK Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/25/03 01:22 PM
Justme I answered your question about L&S device on the other thread

I would like to add; I found Brians project interesting and personally got the same effect using a L&S device because in many ways it is similar to bwgen. (just the additional effect of a light show). Because I can use the tapes with the L&S device I found that I have addtional variety and never needed to bother figuring out software to combine them as well as enjoying the mobility.

Alex





Posted By: JJWjr Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/26/03 01:07 AM
JustMe,
If you take a look at the Centerpointe.com home page you can find a demonstration 18 minutes in length. This sample can be listened to via real player or window's media player. Simply scroll about half way down the home page and on the lower left a link will be available to try it out. This demo is not as strong as the actual levels in the program but it can give you an idea of where this type of technology can take you.





Posted By: Kaiden Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/26/03 03:01 AM
I don't have Centrepoint, and I don't intend to get it in the near future.

However, let me state this. Rex Sikes, a NLP'er of some fame in my home town and a contributer to the "Euphoria!" personal learning course, recomends spending no less than 5% of your income on yourself. If you make $25,000 a year, then $500 a year is a reasonable investment, especially if CentrePoint really is [U]The End[/U].

I have no idea if CenrePoint works or not, but I believe Awakening-Prologue comes with a year's gaurentee or something.

Here's how I "compare" Centrepoint with Natural Brilliance.

Natural Brilliance is a four-step process. Each step is given detail in the book, and reenforced with the paraliminals in the PLC, but it's up to the student to find ways to DO the steps. One of the most important things I've come across in my Mad Quest for Magical Power is the idea that one MUST do some form of meditation. Usually, this falls under the "release" step, but it also enhances the other steps as well.

The comment I've seen over and over again about CentrePoint is that you WILL face your gremlins while doing it. With the lifetime phone support offered, this also is something that I would advise anyone into magic to consider. Isreal Regarde said that the first step of the Great Work is psychotherapy. CentrePoint is different than most NLP-based improvement techs, as it is "theraputic" (e.g. "Purification"), rather than purely generative.

My current philosophy/preset goals/blood pressure call for a more somatic form of meditation. I'm considering Spring Forst Qigong (174/114 blood pressure), combined with a Tai Chi class at the local Y. I get the joining fee waved from work. I figure it's a little more expensive than a straight Tai-Chi class, but the swimming pool, weights, and free arobics classes make it worth it.





Posted By: NickR Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/26/03 09:12 PM
I cannot comment on Natural Brilliance,although it is on my list.
But I can tell you that the Centerpointe program works. I am a third of the way through Awakening Level II. I have had no major shifts yet,but compared to the state I was in when I began, I am definetely on the up. It takes a lot to disturb my equilibrium, and I am much more focused. A word of warning though,some people(including myself) find the program very heavygoing at times. The amount of overwhelm that comes can be too much, this is were the superb support team comes in. The full program does take over ten years but I can find an hour a day to meditate quiet easily. Overwhelm sometimes makes settling down to meditate difficult.
Despite the drawbacks I am pleased that I became involved in this program. After 25 years of searching it is great to have at last found a product that lives up to it's claims.





What settings should i use on bwgen to achieve a similar effect to the centerpoint program?





I too am a Centerpointe participant; Awakening Level 1, was introduced to LS through Centerpointe, Bill Harris and Paule Scheele are colleagues, approach the end result with slightly different methods, yet they overlap in many areas. Have read books by both and see many paralells, even in the areas of Mind Mapping and Unconscious Incompetence, Conscious Incompetence, Conscious Competence and Unconscious Competence.

I have to say that each Holosync level is sufficient on its own and there is nothing requiring one to go further..re...thousands of dollars.
The reason we continue to buy new levels is that it makes us feel so good we want to see how much better it can get.

While Holosync takes you progressively from a Beta, to a alpha, to a theta to a Delta on the same tape or CD....using binaural beats...each consecutive set of CDs/tapes reduces the carrier frequency....causing your brain to actually evolve to a higher level.

While this is happening of course you are clearing out...old junk. Whether or not is painful or difficult for you depends on how much you resist the feelings. Bill Harris is big on "witnesing", that is watching whatever your state you are in without trying to change it or judge it, just watch yourself and see what happens. But heck we have all had bad days already...the difference is that with Holosync we are finally clearing out those dark things that are holding us back.

I have been looking at Brainwave Generator software...which does enhance meditation states, yet have been unable to find any reference to lower carrier frequencies. Also Centerpointe offers you the option with each level except the first of having your own persoanl affirmations encoded on the soundtracks using patented and recently de-classified Silent Subliminal technology...something like 100 times more effective than conventional subliminal messages.

Yet the real benefit is in the fact that your brain evolves to a higher level because of the entropy created rather than any beneficial meditation state you may achieve while listening. Having said that, the mediation states are truly enjoyable.

Still, thjere are many pathways to wholeness/enlightenement....higher order. Good luck with anything you try.





Interesting concept----spending only 5% on yourself....Kaiden.

I know it wasnt your idea but I find it difficult to "get around" that concept.
Perhaps I am not reading the whole idea correctly.
I dont really mean to argue about a point made by someone, not only who isnt here but whose concept I have not entirely grasped.

But it does seem a rather dismal, not to mention difficult existence.

One has to wonder...about where one would spend the rest of their income if only 5% went on themselves.
And thinking about it, just now...dont we spend almost all of our income on ourselves? directly or indirectly?

Rent or mortgage payments...so WE can have a place to live, food..even what we buy for our kids, if we have any....is still for ourselves. RRSPs?...for ourselves.

My father used to tell me that we should spend 10% of our income on charity, tithing etc, yet as a father with a wife and 2 children he was able only to tithe about 5%

University students, some of whom post here...who earn their own money for tuition, lodging etc, spend the entirety of their income on themselves, yet indirectly on the rest of the world in that their "bought" skills will benefit others.....

And in the end, if we can buy something that will make us better people which will ultimately help the rest of the world...what difference what percentage of our income is spent...on ourselves?
Anyway, I have Euphoria coming to me by mail at this time...so perhaps I can understand Mr Sikes' concept better.

...any thoughts?





I have tried Centerpointe and think it is a complete waste of time and money. The Monroe Institute has much better products with Hemi-Sync technology that creates great results. I think Centerpointe is just a marketing scam. Paraliminal tapes are completely different. They are a form of hypnosis and NLP with verbal induction/information and don't have brain entrainment frequencies. Listening with a light and sound machine could possibly enhance it for a stronger effect. I'd like to warn people to not waste money on Centerpointe though. I should have returned my CDs but let too much time go by.





Posted By: AlexK Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/28/03 12:00 PM
I wouldn't say using the paraliminals with a light and sound device has a stronger effect. I listen to them either way. Entertaining yes and possibly making the meditation more dynamic.

The paraliminals are effective on their own and certainly don't require entrainment devices. Which is good since light and sound devices are not suitable for everyone.

Alex





Posted By: NickR Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 02/28/03 02:11 PM
Hey Dreamlife so Centerpointe did not work for you,thats fair enough. But it has worked for a lot of people. I tried the Sedona Method two years ago. I got nothing out of it,but that does not make it invalid.
It is disgraceful of you to slur the good name of the Centerpointe organisation with the word 'scam'. It is hardly the policy of a dishonest business to offer a twelve month guarantee (Hey it is your problem if you did not return the tapes/CD's). Let other people find out for themselves.
Bill Harris contributes to the Euphoria package. I am very sure that a scamster would not have been asked to make a contribution. Shame on you.





I am interested DreamLife--How much time and ffort did you invest in the Centerpointe Holosync method?





My problem with Centerpointe is for two main reasons:

1) I had used the Monroe Institute Hemi-Sync products for quite a while and had such great results that the Centerpointe appeared to do nothing. Also their theories made no sense because you don't have to wait years to go "deeper," I'd gone much deeper with the Hemi-Sync and was probably already at their last level after only a year or so of Hemi-Sync. Also anyone can program BWgen or light & sound machines to go "deeper" without waiting. Also, there was no negative stuff with Hemi-Sync, no emotional upheaval, and I went on their site and saw LOTS of complaints. You can go very deep and still be happy. As a matter of fact some of the Hemi-sync products, like Deep 10 Relaxation had the result of making me feel really content and happy during the day and having lucid dreams and OBEs at night. Who needs upheaval???

2) I hated Centerpointe's marketing. "For two weeks only, we have this ONE time special!" "But wait, there's more!" Every week, they'd waste trees on infommercials on paper. Very desperate for business.

I did keep trying to see if it did anything, but found it was just removing all the positive effects of the Hemi-Sync, so I put it aside and went back to Hemi-Sync. I like to be happy and have lucid dreams. I don't want or need emotional upheaval. That simple.





Posted By: NickR Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 03/01/03 11:15 PM
Dreamlife
Fair enough, but you are still way out of line using the word 'scam'.






Well... I do not believe that their product works, I believe they over-charge and attempt to create a need for a product that involves a possible ten year commitment where there their is none, and their marketing campaign is over-zealous and annoying. I can't really think of a better word... Sorry. This is nothing against you personally (unless you are Bill Harris) and I don't mean to upset you, but it's what I personally believe about Centerpointe.





Posted By: JJWjr Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 03/02/03 01:04 AM

Now I understand why the Holosync Technology didn't work for you, DreamLife. The program is definately not intended to be a short term method of self-improvement. It's a gradual journey to higher reorganization of the brain as new neural pathways are created. I see where you're coming from when you mentioned, "I believe they over-charge and attempt to create a need for a product that involves a possible ten year commitment where there their is none." A 5, 7, or 10 year committment can seem like a never ending journey where a great deal of money is forked over to Centerpointe. However, I have come across statements by Bill Harris where he openly exclaims that it's not necessary or even commonplace for the program participants to follow through with it in its entirety. In fact, he says on one of the Cds that I have from him that out of the 80,000-100,000 or so participants there may literally only be only 20 or so people who have completed it. Of course, $ is always a factor in any endeavor, and I'm sure it's a reason for that. But, my point being is that to assume or anticipate the need of a 10 year committment before one feels that they have become content or experienced noticeable self-improvement is getting ahead of ones self. Best wishes in your continued use of Monroe Institute's products.





Posted By: NickR Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 03/02/03 09:42 AM
Dreamlife
As previously mentioned I gave the Sedona Method a good try and it did nothing for me. But unlike yourself I would not accuse the organsiers of the Sedona Method of operating a scam;it just did not work for me.
There is too much in the way of positive testimonials (they are not afraid to print the bad stuff either) to ignore the efficiency of Centerpointe. If you think their ten year program is long thats fine,but most people get great results way before then. One of my friends who joined the program before me(he is just starting his third year),has had major shifts in his life, which he and his wife are thrilled with.
Anyway good luck to you.








I've used Holosync, paraliminals and the Sedona method all in a relatively short period of time. There has been some fairly harsh banter going back and forth, but what we need to understand is that each person's experience is just that, it's their own personal experience and therefore can only be subjective.

What works wonders for some could possibly lead to dismay for others. Why are there so many diets on the market? Why are there so many different fitness programs? Why so many different majors to choose from in college?? Why so many different kinds of coffee??? The answer is that one size does not fit all when it comes to defining and designing the lives we lead.

The first step of course is to determine that there's a need. Then, to quote the president of Learning Strategies, "Just as there are many ways to get to Chicago, there are many ways to accomplish your goals...". What one must do is examine the choices that are available, do some research, and then make an intelligent choice based on the information we obtain. We do it every day. More importantly, that's all we can do. And if by chance we make a mistake along the way, we reevaluate our choices. Not critically or harshly, because we're all doing the best we can with what we know at any given moment. We are constantly evaluating and reevaluating our progress on whatever path we happen to be on at any given time in our life and make the necessary adjustments to reach our destination.

I said before that I've used Natural Brilliance, Sedona,and Holosync. It occurs to me that the process I just described is a good example of the Natural Brilliance model in action - Release, Notice, Respond, and Witness. Gee, it must be working. (I just noticed that!)

I came to the LSC website during a time of depression and upheaval in my life. I quickly purchased and proceeded to try to use almost every paraliminal available. (Notice that I said that I tried to use all of them.) I read all I could in the forums, and they kept mentioning Natural Brilliance, Holosync, and Sedona. I wanted them all! I had a strong need for releasing some things that had pretty much immobilized me for some time, so although I enjoyed NB, I decided to invest in the Sedona method for some deeper relasing.

Now I must say that I was in a pretty severe stuck state at the time, which is why I invested in Holosync as well. What appealed to me about Holosync was that it was not cognitive for me. That is, it didn't require any preparation or conscious effort. I liked that. I could just put on the headphones, listen, and think about anything I wanted (which is actually encouraged by the way since it brings up subconscious issues into conscious awareness). My difficulty with Holosync was that it brought up an extreme overabundance of overwhelm, stress, and anxiety for me. Enter the Centerpointe support line - they were absolutely INCREDIBLE!!!. I am so thankful they were there. They really helped me to get through a rough time in my life. I can't say at this time whether Holosync in and of itself has provided much in the way of results, but one thing is certain. Centerpointe was there for me at a time when it seemed that I was in my darkest hour, and for that I'm eternally grateful.

Blessings to all,
Glenwood








I'm finishing up Holosync Awakening Prologue and am awaiting level 1. I personally haven't yet noticed any significant changes, but I decided to continue with the program because the meditation sessions just feel so durn good! So no, it hasn't changed my life but being in a relaxed, focused, and centered state has to be good for you.

Has anyone tried using the Monroe Institute Hemisync programs WITH holosync? Monroe's website says not to combine Hemisync with other brain entrainment programs, but some of their titles seem like they would be extremely beneficial for some of the overwhelm symptoms of Holosync.

Publius





I did try both programs together, but stopped Holosync because it was ruining all the positive effects of The Monroe Institute's Hemi-Sync. I have to admit that I'm a huge fan of the Monroe Institute products. I think they could possibly help release endorphins or other brain chemicals that just make you feel really content and happy and also help you open up to higher states of consciousness.

So far they have not been helpful though with productivity, especially tackling unpleasant or boring tasks that need to be done--so that is why I'm trying the paraliminals. I'm happy, sometimes even get moments of almost euphoria for no reason, and I'm having lots of lucid dreams, but not accomplishing as much as I could... So I'm hoping the paraliminals which don't have brainwave entrainment, but just NLP/hypnosis techniques will be good addition to the Hemi-Sync.





Posted By: Kaiden Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 03/06/03 01:00 AM
This really goes into the question of the value of pain. Obviously, change doesn't have to be painful. However, there is a certain amount of discomfort in a great many activities which do produce positive results. Assuming that the Holosynch program isn't simply producing mental anguish in order to provide a placebo effect that change is indeed taking place, then the question becomes is the pain needed in order to "awaken" into a life with more joy and less pain?

My theory, untested as it is, is that somehow the act of consciousness during delta entrainment produces a state where the "ego" and "shadow" merge, because of the difficulty of thought at this level. The "awakening" is painful because it involves embracing those aspects of ourself we wish to deny. This is not something unique to Holosynch. Any program of meditation will eventually create an integrated state where the twin demons of the Ego and the Shadow will fight with the authentic "self." I've even had the experience with paraliminal tapes (e.g. having extrememly unpleasent memories pop up while listening to the Memory Supercharger, almost screaming out during Belief, having a relapse after Self Esteem Supercharger). The key to this probably is the detached perspective of witness. Especially, I say, when dealing with the past. Painful memories tend to be forgotten - I have often said aloud the word "no" when a painful memory spontaniously recollects. The key to actually dealing with it is to vividly remember the experience, and to name every emotion felt. The act of naming integrates the emotional limbic centers with the Boca region. This helps, as the limbic system has very little sense of "then" vs. "now" vs. "maybe." Naming an emotion affirms the reality, and also lets the whole mind accept that the experience is in the past, and that the entity has survived. It's something I learned from a Tantrik Black-Hat with a degree in psychology, so I'm not sure if this is coming from the psychologist or the lama, but either way I've found it to be very good advice.





Personally, I am the type to avoid pain at all costs.
I also actively seek pleasure, so for me positive reinforcement works best. Creating negative emotions, just to come out on the other end happy again, seems like pointless, unecessary torture.

So my goal is to make life even more pleasant by trying to teach myself to actually ENJOY doing things I normally hate or avoid doing. The issues with me are not emotional, I'm just plain lazy. I'd rather do something fun than something productive, but unpleasant. If my subconscious mind could believe that paying bills, cleaning up, working out, etc... was actually ENJOYABLE, then I could be more efficient AND happy!





Dreamlife,

I wonder how many weeks you spent on the CRI
program using the Awakening Prologue or did you just listen to the demo??

Another important fact you mentioned is that
h/s wiped out the positive gains from hemi-sync. The question is how positive are these
gains if they can be wipe-out?
Does this not indicate that the "results" you have achieved with hemi-sync are unstable or have to be enforced in order to
have the gains consistantly?

I am on the Purification level (P 1,0.5) of the h/s program.

Cheers,

[This message has been edited by Frodo02 (edited March 08, 2003).]





Okay, this is the thing. Since I was a baby I've naturally had spontaneous lucid dreams and OBE's (out of body experiences.) About five years ago or so, I began to research these subjects and discovered the Monroe Institute and the Hemi-Sync products. I discovered that certain CDs, and not necessarily the ones that are advertised to do so, were directly helpful at inducing more of these experiences which I enjoy a lot. They also had the side benefit of giving me this sometimes almost giddy feeling of happiness. Everything was right with the world. Even while stuck in bumper to bumper traffic, life was beautiful. At any moment something wonderful could happen, the doors to the world seemed wide open. Maybe I was producing huge amounts of endorphins, I don't know what was happening but I liked it. So I thought, if this is good, let me try some other things and get even more of this.

So I tried a variety of different products including Centerpointe. I tried Centerpointe for a couple of weeks while I stopped the Hemi-Sync. I completely stopped having lucid dreams and OBEs. Life was mundane again. Traffick sucked. Little things started to irritate me. I wasn't happy anymore. I stopped the Centerpointe and went back to Hemi-Sync. And slowly it all came back. I'm not sure what the benefits of Centerpointe were supposed to be, but I prefer being happy, enjoying life and having lucid dreams and OBEs.

I still tend to procrastinate and avoid doing things I dislike, but at least I'm happy. But that's my personality. I choose pleasure over pain. Every once and a while I will give Centerpointe a good college try, but each time it has the same results. It makes me less happy than I already was. So what's the point?

I'm naturally pretty happy without all this stuff, but Hemi-Sync increases it even more and allows me to enjoy and research lucid dreams, OBEs and other states of consciousness. Life can seem magical. I smile when I'm stuck in traffic. Maybe I'm just high on my own endorphins, but I like it, what can I say?

I've tried lots of brainwave entrainment products for inducing altered or higher states of consciousness including Kelly Howell's Brain-Sync, William Buhlman, Tom Kenyon & Brian Paulson, Dane Spotts (another waste of time), Dick Sutphen and Jeffrey Thompson. Besides Hemi-Sync, I have had the best experiences with Jeffrey Thompson's products, especially Theta Meditation System CD #2. I've also had some interesting experiences with Anna Wise's "High Performance Mind" and strangely enough, Aeoliah's "Anchoring Your Light Body" which is very "new-agey" but effective.

So, I've done a lot of research and discovered what works best for me. I put in a lot of time and money because it's something that really interests me, but if I can make recommendations to help other people save time and money, I try to.

To me, Hemi-Sync users are like Mac users and Mac users will know what I mean. It's something they defend and care about. It's not just another computer, it's special. Hemi-Sync users usually feel the same way about Hemi-Sync. It's just the best.





Dreamlife,

Thanks for your more detailed explanation.

If I would be a Centerpointe salesman or a h/s fanatic I would argue that because something like H/S can wipe out your gains there must be some
problems underneath. I would then suggest to use H//S to dig up
these problem in order to make your happiness more sustainable.
(I guess you must use the Hemi-sync tapes over and over to keep those
gains??)

I also would argue that a couple of weeks on H/S are not enough to judge
that program.

BUT, I AM NOT SAYING THIS. I think that your present NOT a hopefully
distant future happiness are most important.
So if Hemi-sync generates those results then STAY with it.

The only thing that make me wonder is that you are still searching for something better. This could indicate that you haven't found the real thing.

Cheers,







Posted By: NickR Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 03/10/03 01:50 PM
Dreamlife
I have read your postings on this topic with interest. I too have a strong interest in lucid dreaming and I have ordered the relevant Hemi-Sync CD's.
I will continue using Centerpointe as the mainstay of my development program. Unlike yourself I was not a particularly happy person. I was abused a lot as a kid (the focus of drunken beatings) and went to a dozen different schools between the ages of five and fourteen. Although Holosync has been painful, after fourteen months of involvement I am much happier and centered within myself. I empathise with your points about pain not being neccesary;but I do not agree. Most meditative disciplines (which is what Holosync is) involve suffering. On a brighter note my meditations over the past month have been blissful, I also seem to have a lot more energy.
Anyway all the best in your growth.

Regards

Nick.







Hmmm... I've never heard of meditaton involving sufffering....

Anyway, I was fortunate enough to have a happy childhood. So I probably don't have a whole lot of "stuff" that needs to come out. As I mentioned, I'm already a pretty happy (and extremely optimistic) person so my intention with these CDs were not to make me happy, but to reach higher states of consciousness and experiment further with lucid dreams and OBEs. The endorphin rush feeling was an unexpected side effect of the Hemi-Sync. I can live without it, and usually do, but it's a nice extra benefit.

For example, a runner can get an extra endorphin boost when he runs which is a nice bonus, but he could be perfectly happy also when not running.

There are, however, some positive long term effects for me from Hemi-Sync and the exploration of different states of consciousness. I tend to look at thinks from a higher perspective in the sense that I really do believe we are more than our physical bodies, and that alone can make life seem kind of magical.





dreamlife,

In my opinion if something like h/s can make
your gains go away then these gains or happieness are not stable.
That does not mean that one has a traumatic
or generell unhappy childhood but nearly every lifing person has experienced some emotional up-sets at some times.

When these are cleared out with Hemi-sync or
h/s then one usually reaches a higher level.

Cheers





quote:
Originally posted by AlexK:
Justme I answered your question about L&S device on the other thread

I would like to add; I found Brians project interesting and personally got the same effect using a L&S device because in many ways it is similar to bwgen. (just the additional effect of a light show). Because I can use the tapes with the L&S device I found that I have addtional variety and never needed to bother figuring out software to combine them as well as enjoying the mobility.

Alex


This is the first time I am posting to a forum. Please respond if I am using this incorrectly.
Question: What is L&S?





Posted By: AlexK Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 03/14/03 01:32 AM
L & S = light and sound device.

A gadget that flickers light onto your closed eyelid and plays entrainments sounds into your ears. Can be used for relaxation learning and meditation.

Alex





Dream:

Sorry to hear you are not pleased with Holosync.
A few thoughts if I may.
You said: "I've never heard of meditaton involving sufffering"

How odd!

In fact if your meditation includes ONLY good feelings then it seems to me that you are not growing. I'm not saying that meditation only involves suffering but considering that you seemed to feel only good things from your other brain entrainent devices it sounds more like you are merely being "entertained"

I don't mean to sound harsh.

Actually for myself the Holosync also started out as....well...unimpressive.
However Bill states over and over: "Let whatever happens be okay" Its quite possible that even though it seems like it's your conscious mind telling you that they "dont work" it may in fact be your ego urging you not to go any further. The ego, that part of yourself that wants to keep you safe and free of pain and does very little for you as far as personal growth. In fact often holds you back...in your safety zone...so to speak.

In fact for a long time I felt nothing, except a great impatience for each listening session to be over. Being a stubborn so-and-so I stuck with it. Even then, it took several months before I noticed a difference. NOW I can say: "What a difference!"

Sometimes when you are walking in the fog the only thing to do is to keep walking until it clears...and see where you are:-)







Hi, you mentioned that you "stopped Holosync because it was ruining all the positive effects of The Monroe Institute's Hemi-Sync.", I believe this is called "upheaval" and quite honestly it reinforces my personal belief that the Holosync technology works better than the Hemi-sync technology. The reason being is that if the Hemi-sync had truly worked there would be nothing left to "undo", I think it is the difference between eliminating the symptom versus experiencing a cure.

I have used both and found the Holosync to be much more effective. The reason why I am writing this is to humbly encourage you to try the Holosync tapes again.
I hope this comes across as I intended, a friendly observation. Thanks

quote:
Originally posted by DreamLife:
I did try both programs together, but stopped Holosync because it was ruining all the positive effects of The Monroe Institute's Hemi-Sync. I have to admit that I'm a huge fan of the Monroe Institute products. I think they could possibly help release endorphins or other brain chemicals that just make you feel really content and happy and also help you open up to higher states of consciousness.

So far they have not been helpful though with productivity, especially tackling unpleasant or boring tasks that need to be done--so that is why I'm trying the paraliminals. I'm happy, sometimes even get moments of almost euphoria for no reason, and I'm having lots of lucid dreams, but not accomplishing as much as I could... So I'm hoping the paraliminals which don't have brainwave entrainment, but just NLP/hypnosis techniques will be good addition to the Hemi-Sync.








Has anyone read "Authentic Happiness" by Martin Seligman? The reviews have intrigued me because it seems that Seligman posits the exact opposite of Holosync. If I understand correctly, Holosync is based in part on the the premise bad conditioning, experiences, and memories from childhood, etc must be brought to the surface and resolved before one can achieve growth. Seligman appears to argue against this. Any thoughts?





Posted By: TC68 Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 04/17/03 08:39 PM
I think you may have misunderstood the theory behind holosync. Here's an excerpt from the CRI newsletter archives where Bill Harris addresses this point. Hopefully CRI wont mind me pasting copywrighted material from their website, given that this basically amounts to advertising for them.


<Bill Harris quote>
My outlook on the healing of so-called dysfunctional feelings and
behaviors is different than the current pop psychology outlook, which could
be described as "you've got all this 'stuff' inside you and you've got to
get it out and heal it." This is, in fact, the model framed by your
question -- that there's this "stuff" (the garbage) that has to be "lost,"
and how does the brain choose which stuff to lose?

Here is the model under which I operate. It comes from watching
thousands of people use this program over many years and gradually refining
the model as more info comes in so that the model more and more accurately
reflects what is actually happening. Luckily, I have a laboratory made up
of thousands of people making dramatic and rapid positive changes, and from
that we have learned a great deal about how people actually change and
become healthier emotionally.

Everyone has a threshold of what they can handle coming at them from
the world. If that threshold is exceeded, people immediately attempt to
cope with being pushed beyond it. This generally takes the form of anger,
depression, anxiety, fear, substance abuse, and a number of other
responses. In extreme cases, a person can even become psychotic (create an
alternate reality in an attempt to cope).

When people grow up with abuse or trauma of some kind, this threshold
for what they can handle coming at them does not mature in the same way it
would have had they not been traumatized. These people, therefore, have a
lower threshold than other people. Many things that might not bother
someone else push them into the above coping mechanisms. They are
ultra-sensitive, and the world is an uncomfortable (and sometimes very
painful) place for these people.

When people use our program, one of the main things that happens is
that this threshold goes up. As it does, they gain the ability to handle an
increasing level of whatever the world throws at them. For those with
extrememly low thresholds, at a certain point they bring their personal
threshold up to a "normal" level. From that point, it continues to improve
as they use the program to what you might call a "super-normal" level.
</Bill Harris quote>





Publius,

I have not read Martin Seligman's Authentic Happiness, but Albert Seibert does make a reference to Seligman in the Resilience course, so I don't think they will have very differing ideas.

In the Resilience course, Paul Scheele and Albert Seibert refer to developing Resiliency as a process very similiar to what TC68 has described about Holosync - essentially that akin to physically working out and getting stronger, Resiliency is all about building the mental and physical strengths to handle the challenges, life throws at you.

My feeling is that Holosync provides a way of gradually challenging the mind (and body, in that you have to keep still for half hour to an hour), so that the threshold (ie "strength") for handling stress and challenge goes up. Along the way, mental "junk" is released, which in turn releases even more energy for the mind-body to get stronger and handle more challenges, and this in turn increases the options for the mind to become more creative and intelligent.

In summary, all roads seem to lead to the same goal - the question is, which way is the quickest, and which methods can be combined to provide the most synergy for the most effective and permanent change to take place.





Hello Everyone,

I learned about Natural Brilliance from Bill Harris at Centerpointe. It's funny that the topic of this discussion is "Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program".

Thank you Glenwood for an awsome post. I appreciate that. Others too. I learned more about Centerpointe and holosync from you guys. I started the program about 2 months ago after listening to the online free demo for 2 weeks. Always wanted to do meditation but lazy enough never to proceed, so Centerpointe took the laziness away with a CD as the technology takes you to alpha to theta to delta.

I'd have to say that when you look at your nails every morning & evening, you don't see them growing and one day you realize that it hurts you to type and WOW, your nails grew so much. Centerpointe is like that as Bill explained. It first creates neural pathways in your brain that currently does not exist. If there were no tunnels and bridges, I couldn't get out of New York city. So someone had to create them first so people can go in and out of the city. Centerpointe first creates the neural pathways in your brain so that you are prepared for higher versions or even other programs, for example, Bill says Natural Brilliance would work best if you are using Centerpointe already. And Light & Sound users - well, at some point your brain gets accustomed to that frequency and then you get nothing new.

Dreamlife- I feel for you. But see, if I have a virus in my body, I need to take antibiotics to get that virus out/destroyed so that I can get well. If I suppress that virus with a medicine, one day the virus will get used to the medicine and it will adapt and learn to bother me again. Like mutation. I don't use Monroe products but Bill mentions a difference in his site: http://www.centerpointe.com/discussion/faq.cfm#23. So I'd say that if you don't get the bad stuff out of your brain, you can only suppress them for so long and in the long run, it can hurt you. I pray to God you stay well and everyone else too. Holosync cleans up your database first, which is your brain, and then you can use anything you want. But since you already paid and have the CD, just listen to it and get your garbage out. I didn't notice anything the first 2 months but now day by day I'm learning something new by using holosync. A.P. costs about $150 or so but also has 1 year warranty. There is no commitment needed for anything.





Perhaps I should be posting a new topic.....but have tried both Hemi-Sync and Holo-Sync and a third one that you might not have heard of- from www.awakenedminds.com.
Yes three binaural courses. I've also tried the Sedona Method. I played a non-verbal monroe cd on one Cd player and the sedona method on another at the same time to increase effectiveness. I've also undergone hypnoanalysis (psychananalysis through hypnosis)-8 week process-cause and effect theory.

I've studied it,parts therapy and have heard of Emotional Freedom Therapy and may sign up for NLP master practitioner course.

I've done alot over the last few years as you me see.

I am/was looking into Learning Strategies Corp products but as they have not answered my email queries, am sceptical of them, much like holosync.

Hemi-sync have always answered my emails. Their products are pleasant but I never experienced OBE's or anything like that.

The Sedona Method,I tried only a few times. So I don't know about it. I'd say its okay.But I like quick results. I'm weary of companies that send alot of marketing material. In this regard, one product has been affordable and efficient and has an absense of marketing material- and because it is has multiple frequencies-reflecting the multi-frequency state nature of the brain through the day have found it effective from day one, and refreshing.

I think they have more than one level from playing it in mediaplayer but like that the don't promote this fact.

they're at www.awakenedminds.com and their CD contains alpha-delta-alpha tracks for something like €39 approx. They send the product out pretty fast too. Since listening to their cd i am not inclined to go any further with hollo-sync although i like the centerpoint bell and flute sounds. In short their levels are too-expensive and offer-kill on marketing material.If they were half their current price then I'd probably continue for another level, but having listened to my insight cd from awakened minds have decided not to go further with hollo-sync.

On Monroe Institute, I have 6 of their waves and many of their human-plus cds.But these cds have not brought me the results that insight cd and a cd's from I bought 2 weeks ago from www.wendi.com. Her cd's have binaural sound on some tracks which are beautifully masked with music.I find her voice and presentation, appealing and superb and find that when the DVDs I purchased not working this week, they unreservedly offered to post me duplicates or VHS version-whichever I wished. In addition I bought a weight loss course from them just at the time they were updating it to include binaural sound and as they were not sure my course was the new version, they sent me the binaural cds as soon as i replied to their newsletter which made me aware of this.Her cds incorporate hypnosis,nlp and parts therapy(secondary gain resolution process therapy).

very long reply...hope it is of value to you all!







Posted By: Ikkyu Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 06/04/03 04:38 PM
I have followed the discussion with interest. I am no expert on any of this - but am able to speak from personal experience in defence of the Holosync programme. I am just finished Level 1 of Purification. I have been using the programme for about 4 and a half years... slowed on occasions by a lack of funds for the next level - but this simply means a longer exposure to each level and may, in fact, be an advantage for that reason. I can understand that some people may be put off by an apparent lack of results, but can say, for myself, quite truthfully, that the programme has shifted me from being quite disintegrated and 'tight' (in some important ways) to being an integrated, less-stressed person with a much higher level of simple, non-judgemental self-awareness - the kind that has helped me, in turn, to be more compassionate and less threatened by others and their ideas, and less attached to outcomes. I have been able to change and grow without significant upheaval, and have, in a spirit of some playfulness and exploration, combined the programme with some paraliminal stuff, some Zen practice and, in the past, some therapeutic work. I can, again only from a personal (necessarily contingent) viewpoint, endorse the Holosync programme - whatever the undoubted strengths of the other programmes mentioned. It certainly has made an identifiable difference, for the better, to my life - and hence to the lives of those I interact with, whether at home or work. I think the most grateful recipients of the changes are probably my kids!





Posted By: NickR Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 06/04/03 08:41 PM
This topic should be labelled Natural Brilliance and Centerpointe Program.
I have been using Holosync for eighteen months and have enjoyed significant gains. I recently took advantage of a special offer from LSC and bought the Natural Brilliance program. I have already had great results with this program particulary in dealing with procrastination. I have also begun to apply the NB model to problems I am having at work. Paul Scheele I am very impressed I have recommended this product to my colleagues and friends.
I see no conflict between these two great products I would not be without either.

Good Luck





Hi NickR,

I'm glad that you find the two programs (h/s & NB) complementing each other. I've just ordered the NB course whislt I've been on the h/s program nearly three years. I've currently taking a week off from h/s to help assimilate the benefits of it. It seems to be working.

Anyway, I hope to get some great insights from NB. If you care to add any further insigts to NB course, feel free to do so, as I won't probably receive my copy for a few weeks.

see ya's





Ikkyu

I am too on the h/s program for now four years. I will completing purification level
one probably in September. I already have the next level here since I am an "inner circle" member. That makes the program really affordable. For less then $ 2000 one
will get the whole program.

So far I can point to out similar results like Ikkyu.

When I started I expected of course some faster results believing CRI's ads. However,
I realized this the kind of American advertising which is nearly always overzealous often boadering on dishonesty.

That's why people outside the US are often very sceptical.

Cheers,







Interesting posts!. So is there much of a difference between Awakening Prologue and Awakening Level 1? looking back on awakening prologue, I found that I had many panic attacks while driving in my car. They did not come in the same severity as the hypnoanalysis.But I have to say I seem to feel calmer, clarer and have more awareness instantly from the awakening minds level 1 cd along with some mild upheavel just after listening. Perhaps you Centerpoint fans can enlighten me on this....
I don't like the idea of a new Principles course being introduced-why doesn't the levels program stand on its own? or is this just to make more profit for the company.

I do have the funds to become and inner circle member, but having rung centerpoint to have my earlier question answered, I never received a callback! Thus I am more inclined to stop with holosync and continue with awakened minds-insight program.







Posted By: NickR Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 06/05/03 08:26 PM
I sympathise with the lack of a call back,they always seem to respond to emails.
The Life Principles units are optional and their production is actually customer driven. It was noted that participants progressed quicker on the Centerpointe retreats. The Life Principles program aims to give some of the knowledge gained from the retreats at home. In a recent mailing Bill Harris does make it clear that participants will gain all the quoted benefits from the Holosync program without the Life Principles modules. The main benefit seems to be to accelerate change. I recently ordered the next two levels of the program as part of a recent Centerpointe promotion;the first two modules of the Life Principles program are given away as part of this promotion,so it is costing recent purchasers nothing to try the modules.
Obviously I am a strong advocate of the program,but I do agree with many of the criticisms that have been aired on this forum. The website and advertising is full of hype. I can remember years ago seeing an old ad for Centerpointe in Omni magazine. I can remember how the advert put me off even thinking about the program. It was'nt until six or seven years later that I joined the program under a friends recommendation. If the advert in Omni had not been so over-egged I would have joined up years ago.
Despite the gripes though I am very happy with my gains. After all the years of searching it is good to have found something which does make a difference.





Hello NickR,

What promotion by LSC are you talking about? Because I am about to order the NB cds and I'll wait for your post. Right now it'll cost me $160+. Please let me know what promotion and how much you paid, maybe I can talk to them about it and get a deal. I am using A.P. and I think NB will go fine with it.

Does anyone know about www.higherbalance.com? They sound very interesting, but seems like a twin brother of CRI, especially their FAQ page.





Posted By: NickR Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 06/06/03 09:16 AM
Desert Sphinx
I think you have missed the deadline for the promotion.Contact the company to find out. Even without the price reduction it is one of the best investments I have made.





Anyone know if Erwin, Margaret and many other greats still participate in the HS forum?

LLL

Michael Saikali






Posted By: Tore Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 06/07/03 01:08 AM
Seems like a relic from the 80s... But then again.. That decade is coming into fashion.. Maybee we'll all go back to cassette-decks for a while. Let's hope not.

= )

Tore

who've actually had use of the tapes when on a trip... but mainly use the cds to make mp3.. I love my ultaportable mp3player. Personal Genius and Selfesteem Supercharger just an arms reach away.





Posted By: AlexK Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 06/07/03 08:56 AM
The last place I would listen to Natural Brilliance to is in the car while driving or otherwise occupied. They really are much more effective if you sit down an work with them.

Alex





I asked the people in Awakening Minds if they had further levels and they say they don't have as such are not necessary. The say that as their cd is harmonically multilayered and therefor much deeper that it works progressively according to whether you keep playing it every day. They say studies decline the claims of companies who have different level programs and that such companies only have this system for profit reasons. Check out their website for comparisions of cost etc. www.awakenedminds.com

Am checing out the higher balance website suggested.





Posted By: shr33m Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 06/19/03 08:15 PM
Well, while we're in "checking out mode", might as well take a peek at http://www.beyondmeditation.com/ while we're looking.

Nothing like developing more overwhelm, no?







"Scam, scam, scam, scam, scam, scam, scam, scam. SCAM, SCAMITY SCAM!"

"I don't like scam!"

Eh, I really do feel that meditation gave me pretty much the same results as holosync or hemisync.

Dreamlife, which hemisync products did you find worked best for you. I'm curious. I played around with them for a while. Like you, I didn't find they helped productivity one jot. They were, however, very entertaining.

Re: centerpointe ... because binaural beat frequencies are at a lower pitch, this makes an amazing transformative experience? Or maybe the PLACEBO EFFECT (belief) along with plain old meditation makes a transformative experience?

You get a lot of the same purgative experiences and depth through using a mantra a la TM or the relaxation respose or doing za-zen (pretzeling your legs, sitting up straight, and counting breaths) as with the tapes. Frankly, I think with meditation you're more involved in the process. Some guy making lots of money on hellishly overpriced tapes is not "doing it" for you.

Frankly, making an investment in a lot of ways (time, money, belief, a little bit of self-image [this has to work, or I am a fool for investing so much of myself into it ... so I'll make it work]) in following a program is much of what makes it work. You make a product that makes people feel, in some way, extraordinary, put a bunch of interesting philosophical/spiritual/psychological rhetoric on top of it, get people believing and investing in it ... and you got something that will make itself work in whatever ways people expect it or want it to. And even if it doesn't, people will make themselves believe it does. It's better than seeing a dupe whenever you cross a mirror.

Listening to binaural beat frequencies every day will most certainly have *some* sort of effect upon you. How much different is it from meditating or just being quiet if you *believe* in that activity the same way? And anyway, how does a person know that the "effects" of holosync are actually the effects of holosync and wouldn't happen anyway? Maybe they are products of belief and expectation?

Perhaps it's just plain old totemism and fetishism. It's been known to work. Repeat after me, three times: the tape is the talisman.

IMO, Centerpointe's intense effort at marketing (read: lying) speaks volumes about their ethics.

But, to quote Guns 'n Roses: use your illusion. Whatever floats your boat.







Posted By: Tore Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 07/04/03 12:18 AM
Centerpoint a scam? If it depends a lot on your belief I guess that you've got one which will not lead to your goal. Well, that is, if you wanted to benefit from the tapes, but perhaps you wanted to find a scam?

Is this about right and wrong or about beliefs that are effective? Believing Centerpointe to be a scam can't be one.

I always say to myself that I will enjoy movies no matter what when I see them. I will remember to use the technique when I get around to trying Holosync. Thanks in advance!

Cya!

Tore





Saying to yourself that you will enjoy a movie can assist in making the movie a better experience. This is reasonable considering movies cost only about 10 dollars a pop. You know what you're doing. You're kinda fooling yourself for your own enjoyment.

When continuing investments of approximately $300 a pop are concerned, I would suggest skepticism rather than unreasoned belief and self-conditioning.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 03, 2003).]





Posted By: Tore Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 07/04/03 09:55 AM
I wouldn't say that the movies transform my life as much as Centerpoint perhaps would do. Self-deluding or not.

So what's it worth? What's the price for happiness or a little peace of mind?

If I could depend only on my consciously directed thoughts instead of precious talismans, I would. I'm just not there yet (at least I tell myself).

Although you seem to have a point about their advertising. I read about a lot of people who say that you shouldn't believe Centerpoint's hype. But they do seem to give transformative effects to people using them. If I've got the money and don't feel like meditating I won't hold myself back.

What is the greatest personal transformation or such that you've experienced? What did you use or happend to you?

Have a nice day!

Tore





Tore,

The truth is, there doesn't need to be a price on personal development. You assume the products deliver on the promise, which is what I strongly question in the first place.

I have had tons of experience with products using binaural beat frequencies. I have had tons of experience with different kinds of meditation. I have used light and sound machines.

I don't know exactly who it is here you think you're fooling with the hackneyed marketing rhetoric that has been rehashed and reused by just about everyone selling some self-improvement product. Maybe yourself?

If you want to buy the tapes or CDs, then buy them. It's money out of your pocket, not mine. I've tried them. As far as I can tell, you can do much better for yourself by simply learning a mantra and putting as much belief in yourself and that process as people do in Centerpointe's product.

My greatest personal transformations have come about through natural life processes and not anything from a tape or directed therapy. Basically, in caring for my nephew for a good amount of time I was able to experience things as a child vicariously through him and be an adult as well. The fact that he was vulnerable and beautiful and going to experience pain, perhaps, like I experienced when I was young was something I learned to deal with all over again. As an adult being with this lovely little tot, I knew I was pretty helpless. I started contemplating things from a parental point of view for the first time, and this lead to many changes in my thinking and experience.

No tapes. No CDs. Just life.

Life is always the best teacher. When it comes to real learning, I think its the golden path.

Not to say tapes and talking and what not have no value, they do. But I think people rely on them too much.






Posted By: baquai Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 07/04/03 07:44 PM
If have to agree with babayada.
I used the Awakening prologue tapes for 3 months and I have been meditating for years.I tried using both together and then I used Holosync only and I did my meditation practice only.I have also used many of the Monroe Institute tapes,The Discovery series,Human plus,meta-music etc.I had some interesting experiences with the Discovery tapes,some mild psychic experiences,intense colors in my minds eye,floods of forgoten memories.I did not have an OBE but I was not really looking for that anyway.They were interesting.With Holosync I can feel the relaxation from the different levels but nothing really intense.
When I practice "traditional" meditation,sometimes I feel nothing and sometimes it is very deep and the effects of a single session lasts for days.In my experience
traditional techniques seem to have a deeper impact.In the Centerpointe literature/ads it states that Holosync gets you to a state that
takes years to achieve with traditional methods.The Whole Centerpointe program takes
years and costs lots of bucks.The teachers I learned meditation give there knowledge away to anyone interested.I think if you could live in a monastic setting away from society and life pressures you could progress quickly,whatever method you used.One of my teachers was sealed in a cave for 3 years.He said he became "very spacious".If you are living as a layman with all the pressure and distractions we have,its going to take longer,no matter what.I have decided not use Holosync any further and concentrate on my "traditional" meditation techniques.Now as for LSC tapes,they have been very helpful,They actually deliver on there claims,I am very happy with there products.





Thank you, baquai.

Baquai mentions a point that I completely neglected. The claim that these tapes put you in the same mental state as a skilled meditator of several years is outrageous and stupid.

Everything can certainly boiled down to a brain state. Sure. Just like you can boil down someone to a two word description, like "nice guy" or "big jerk." These descriptions, however, are far from exhaustive and lack a whole lot of crucial information.

The state of a meditator is not just a "brain state." It is a state in his or her own brain, which contains an ongoing chemistry and bunches and bunches of neural-connections, dendritic whatsits, and glial thingamabobs. It's a big, honkin, complex mess of different stuff. It's unique and formed, partially, from hours and hours (if not years and years) of meditation.

Statements like "if you fly on a concord to location x or walk there, you still end up in location x" are patently absurd. The person who walks is different from the person who flies because of his experiences, time for reflection upon them, and blah blah blah. I am not exactly sure that I need to point this stuff out, but when people repeat Centerpointe advertising it makes me think that there are basic thoughts that they are putting aside because they just want the neato meditation CDs.

In fact, I am willing to bet that 20 minutes, 60 minutes, 540 hours of listening to awakening (funny, it should be called "Put your reason to sleep and hand over your money Levels 1, 2, 3, etc.") you will not be where someone who has meditated for 15 years is. Sorry.

During and after listening to the "Prepare to be screwed out of your money Prologue," I can say I was no where near where I was after like 2 months of zazen. No way.

Ok. I'm exhausted on this. I'll shut up for good.






Posted By: NickR Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 07/04/03 10:01 PM
First of all calm down. Your heated rhetoric hardly sounds like the output of seasoned meditators;maybe the overwhelm is kicking in.
I have been using Holosync for just over two years,during that time I have kept a journal.
I have noticed many changes. My ability to withstand various stressors has increased greatly. More importantly the people close to me have noticed changes within me and have told me without my asking.
By all means carry on with traditional meditation methods,however,I think you will find that it takes considerably longer than Holosync.
If you feel as strongly as you do against Holosync don't bother with it.
As for expense,well after years of searching it's nice to find something that works. I am now at the stage were the levels last for a year. The cost 4$-5$ per week. In England thats about two beers,hardly expensive.
Self deception ? I dont' think so. I have discarded many self help products. I have the confidence to trust my own experience and the feedback of those who are close to me.
There are many paths to get to where we all want to get to. I have found mine, I hope that you all find yours.
As for the marketing, if you don't like it bin it. If Holosync does'nt work for you,then send it back for a refund. It is'nt difficult.






It's funny to me that you consider what I am saying as overheated and the result of overwhelm. The result of strong feelings and not lukewarm, certainly. I can assure you that my nostrils weren't flaring and I wasn't hurling my own feces at the walls and screaming when I posted.

Irrational and not the result of a seasoned meditator... Hmmm. Depends on the meditator. Read some Zen stories, and you'll find my rhetoric much less severe than the actions of meditators much more seasoned than I. I disagree with your assessment of my conclusions as unreasoned.

If you've gotten improvements, Nick, then good for you. The question I have is just what was fundamental in the creation of those results? Did you need the Centerpointe material? Could you have gotten the same results if you had just sat there doing mindfulness exercises? We disagree on the answers to that question, and that is the crux of it.

As to your statement that people meditating go slower and get less benefits: balderdash. It's an easy statement to make, but a hard one to back up.

Long ago, I have already started doing what you have suggested, Nick, concerning Centerpointe "literature" that I receive. It goes straight into the trash.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 04, 2003).]





Posted By: baquai Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 07/05/03 02:18 AM
NickR,
I am not feeling "heated".I practiced with the Holosync tapes for about 12 weeks.They did not have the impact on me that the hemi-sync tapes had.I have done traditional meditation with the tapes and just meditated with out them.I found that I do not need Holosync to meditate so I am not continuing the program.I think the Monroe tapes are a useful tool for exploration.I had some very interesting experiences with them at a moderate cost and a minor investment of time.The Centerpointe program is way over priced,has way to much hype for me and just does not deliver on there claims.Spiritual practice is a lifetime anyway ,Whats the rush?,I got caught up in "delta,deeper,faster more" mode and bought the Awakening prologue.I learned a valuable lesson.Again I must say the LSC tapes are worth every penny;-)





Posted By: NickR Re: Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program - 07/05/03 10:33 AM
You say that you gave Holosync a 12 week trial (hardly enough) and then you say "whats the rush". A little inconsistent.
Centerpointe certainly indulge in hyperbole
but the product works. The results that I have had, go beyond practising mindulness meditation and are a lot more stable.
I agree about your judgement of LSC's products. Natural Brilliance is outstanding.
Anyway lets agree to differ. But scamsters do not usually offer 12 month guarantees. Paul Scheele seems happy enough to include a contribution on Euphoria from Bill Harris. I think very highly of both men. They deserve all their success.






quote:
Originally posted by babayada:
I'll shut up for good.

"...and then I think I'll ramble on a little more."

I don't know which of the two is worse, babayada for using "crux" and "balderdash" when "pivotal point" and "nonsense" will do, or baquai for using Holosync for a whopping 3 months and saying it doesn't deliver on what it says it does. Spoken like someone who has yet to read the Centerpointe literature that gets sent out.

Of course, you're both entitled to your opinions and your million dollar words. If you both think you need to be putting some "effort" in by doing regular meditation as a way of feeling you've accomplished something, by all means, go right ahead. But personally, I'm one to think that Bill Harris delivers on what he promises. Have I gone into the deeper levels and seen all of these benefits? No, but it makes sense to me.

If traditional meditation is so good, then why are you both considering other alternatives? Or have you both just decided to take a couple steps down this road, looked further along the path and said, "Screw this"? From what I've read in the Centerpointe literature, getting the benefits of meditation has absolutely zero to do with the experiences you have during the meditation. But now I'm just rambling to get my two cents in. Hopefully once I've used Holosync for a few years, I'll realize how pointless these debates really are.

[This message has been edited by Solarimus (edited July 05, 2003).]





Solarimus,

I don't consider balderdash or crux to be million dollar words. I value them at around 50 cents, max. Disestablishmentarianism or the like is closer to a million dollar word. More syllables, see? And, hey, at least I don't use french. Notice that I didn't once use vis-a-vis or jouissance. It could be worse.

I don't know how sincere you will think me when I say that these are the words that first come to mind as I am typing. I do admit that I find it amusing that it annoys you. I don't find stuff like that annoying. As a writer and fan of George Carlin, I do feel that it would be appropritate to criticize me for using "actual truth" when "truth" would suffice.

I know I said I'd shut up, and I didn't. I feel a little bit guilty about that, but then someone came along and made a response, to which I felt oblidged to respond.

If what Bill Harris says makes sense to you, then we differ in both reasoning and opinions. Not much more a person can say regarding those facts.

Why did I consider alternatives to traditional meditation? Curiosity.

Did I say "screw this" to traditional meditation? Yes. Several times. Why? Well, zazen can be pretty freaking painful. Physically and psychologically. Full lotus, sitting absolutely straight (luckily we weren't hit by sticks), and trying desperately to count ten complete breaths without a stray thought ... painful. Add to that the inner craziness that can happen during meditation, and you got the perfect activity for any willing masochist. It's been described as having a huge ball of molten metal in your throat that you can neither swallow nor spit up. TM is a lot easier, but there were times I just got lazy and decided to say to hell with it. Currently, I meditate sporatically. I don't use holosync because I think (here it comes) it's balderdash.

I have heard the same thing from different sources about the benefits of meditation having little to do with the actual experiences of it. That you shouldn't strive for a special feeling, or what have you. Go with it, whatever it is is the message. I agree with that. About effort, it does feel better to me when I feel that I am participating in the process and not having it done to me by a tape or another person. It feels more personal and more valid. However, that is personal and has nothing to do with the efficacy or lack of efficacy of a process. That's just personal taste.

As to these discussions being pointless ... well, depends on your point of view. I find it very entertaining. Anyway, in a thousand years, maybe more maybe less, from now ... everything the human race has done can be considered pointless.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 06, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 06, 2003).]





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