Many thanks
Many thanks
As for Photoreading, only have 5 weeks experience. I look at PR as a continuation of improving awareness. But I credit Centerpointe with helping me to recognize other beneficial programs out there such as those provided by LSC.
So my question now is do you recommend using NB with holosync technology (eg using BWgen) for better results and leaving it at that, or getting the base CP program and then modifying that in some way (how?) to enable you to essentially get round the problem of having to spend thousands of $$$’s in follow courses? I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has managed to do this successfully and how they’ve achieved it.
Many thanks!
I would like to add; I found Brians project interesting and personally got the same effect using a L&S device because in many ways it is similar to bwgen. (just the additional effect of a light show). Because I can use the tapes with the L&S device I found that I have addtional variety and never needed to bother figuring out software to combine them as well as enjoying the mobility.
Alex
However, let me state this. Rex Sikes, a NLP'er of some fame in my home town and a contributer to the "Euphoria!" personal learning course, recomends spending no less than 5% of your income on yourself. If you make $25,000 a year, then $500 a year is a reasonable investment, especially if CentrePoint really is [U]The End[/U].
I have no idea if CenrePoint works or not, but I believe Awakening-Prologue comes with a year's gaurentee or something.
Here's how I "compare" Centrepoint with Natural Brilliance.
Natural Brilliance is a four-step process. Each step is given detail in the book, and reenforced with the paraliminals in the PLC, but it's up to the student to find ways to DO the steps. One of the most important things I've come across in my Mad Quest for Magical Power is the idea that one MUST do some form of meditation. Usually, this falls under the "release" step, but it also enhances the other steps as well.
The comment I've seen over and over again about CentrePoint is that you WILL face your gremlins while doing it. With the lifetime phone support offered, this also is something that I would advise anyone into magic to consider. Isreal Regarde said that the first step of the Great Work is psychotherapy. CentrePoint is different than most NLP-based improvement techs, as it is "theraputic" (e.g. "Purification"), rather than purely generative.
My current philosophy/preset goals/blood pressure call for a more somatic form of meditation. I'm considering Spring Forst Qigong (174/114 blood pressure), combined with a Tai Chi class at the local Y. I get the joining fee waved from work. I figure it's a little more expensive than a straight Tai-Chi class, but the swimming pool, weights, and free arobics classes make it worth it.
I have to say that each Holosync level is sufficient on its own and there is nothing requiring one to go further..re...thousands of dollars.
The reason we continue to buy new levels is that it makes us feel so good we want to see how much better it can get.
While Holosync takes you progressively from a Beta, to a alpha, to a theta to a Delta on the same tape or CD....using binaural beats...each consecutive set of CDs/tapes reduces the carrier frequency....causing your brain to actually evolve to a higher level.
While this is happening of course you are clearing out...old junk. Whether or not is painful or difficult for you depends on how much you resist the feelings. Bill Harris is big on "witnesing", that is watching whatever your state you are in without trying to change it or judge it, just watch yourself and see what happens. But heck we have all had bad days already...the difference is that with Holosync we are finally clearing out those dark things that are holding us back.
I have been looking at Brainwave Generator software...which does enhance meditation states, yet have been unable to find any reference to lower carrier frequencies. Also Centerpointe offers you the option with each level except the first of having your own persoanl affirmations encoded on the soundtracks using patented and recently de-classified Silent Subliminal technology...something like 100 times more effective than conventional subliminal messages.
Yet the real benefit is in the fact that your brain evolves to a higher level because of the entropy created rather than any beneficial meditation state you may achieve while listening. Having said that, the mediation states are truly enjoyable.
Still, thjere are many pathways to wholeness/enlightenement....higher order. Good luck with anything you try.
I know it wasnt your idea but I find it difficult to "get around" that concept.
Perhaps I am not reading the whole idea correctly.
I dont really mean to argue about a point made by someone, not only who isnt here but whose concept I have not entirely grasped.
But it does seem a rather dismal, not to mention difficult existence.
One has to wonder...about where one would spend the rest of their income if only 5% went on themselves.
And thinking about it, just now...dont we spend almost all of our income on ourselves? directly or indirectly?
Rent or mortgage payments...so WE can have a place to live, food..even what we buy for our kids, if we have any....is still for ourselves. RRSPs?...for ourselves.
My father used to tell me that we should spend 10% of our income on charity, tithing etc, yet as a father with a wife and 2 children he was able only to tithe about 5%
University students, some of whom post here...who earn their own money for tuition, lodging etc, spend the entirety of their income on themselves, yet indirectly on the rest of the world in that their "bought" skills will benefit others.....
And in the end, if we can buy something that will make us better people which will ultimately help the rest of the world...what difference what percentage of our income is spent...on ourselves?
Anyway, I have Euphoria coming to me by mail at this time...so perhaps I can understand Mr Sikes' concept better.
...any thoughts?
The paraliminals are effective on their own and certainly don't require entrainment devices. Which is good since light and sound devices are not suitable for everyone.
Alex
1) I had used the Monroe Institute Hemi-Sync products for quite a while and had such great results that the Centerpointe appeared to do nothing. Also their theories made no sense because you don't have to wait years to go "deeper," I'd gone much deeper with the Hemi-Sync and was probably already at their last level after only a year or so of Hemi-Sync. Also anyone can program BWgen or light & sound machines to go "deeper" without waiting. Also, there was no negative stuff with Hemi-Sync, no emotional upheaval, and I went on their site and saw LOTS of complaints. You can go very deep and still be happy. As a matter of fact some of the Hemi-sync products, like Deep 10 Relaxation had the result of making me feel really content and happy during the day and having lucid dreams and OBEs at night. Who needs upheaval???
2) I hated Centerpointe's marketing. "For two weeks only, we have this ONE time special!" "But wait, there's more!" Every week, they'd waste trees on infommercials on paper. Very desperate for business.
I did keep trying to see if it did anything, but found it was just removing all the positive effects of the Hemi-Sync, so I put it aside and went back to Hemi-Sync. I like to be happy and have lucid dreams. I don't want or need emotional upheaval. That simple.
What works wonders for some could possibly lead to dismay for others. Why are there so many diets on the market? Why are there so many different fitness programs? Why so many different majors to choose from in college?? Why so many different kinds of coffee??? The answer is that one size does not fit all when it comes to defining and designing the lives we lead.
The first step of course is to determine that there's a need. Then, to quote the president of Learning Strategies, "Just as there are many ways to get to Chicago, there are many ways to accomplish your goals...". What one must do is examine the choices that are available, do some research, and then make an intelligent choice based on the information we obtain. We do it every day. More importantly, that's all we can do. And if by chance we make a mistake along the way, we reevaluate our choices. Not critically or harshly, because we're all doing the best we can with what we know at any given moment. We are constantly evaluating and reevaluating our progress on whatever path we happen to be on at any given time in our life and make the necessary adjustments to reach our destination.
I said before that I've used Natural Brilliance, Sedona,and Holosync. It occurs to me that the process I just described is a good example of the Natural Brilliance model in action - Release, Notice, Respond, and Witness. Gee, it must be working. (I just noticed that!)
I came to the LSC website during a time of depression and upheaval in my life. I quickly purchased and proceeded to try to use almost every paraliminal available. (Notice that I said that I tried to use all of them.) I read all I could in the forums, and they kept mentioning Natural Brilliance, Holosync, and Sedona. I wanted them all! I had a strong need for releasing some things that had pretty much immobilized me for some time, so although I enjoyed NB, I decided to invest in the Sedona method for some deeper relasing.
Now I must say that I was in a pretty severe stuck state at the time, which is why I invested in Holosync as well. What appealed to me about Holosync was that it was not cognitive for me. That is, it didn't require any preparation or conscious effort. I liked that. I could just put on the headphones, listen, and think about anything I wanted (which is actually encouraged by the way since it brings up subconscious issues into conscious awareness). My difficulty with Holosync was that it brought up an extreme overabundance of overwhelm, stress, and anxiety for me. Enter the Centerpointe support line - they were absolutely INCREDIBLE!!!. I am so thankful they were there. They really helped me to get through a rough time in my life. I can't say at this time whether Holosync in and of itself has provided much in the way of results, but one thing is certain. Centerpointe was there for me at a time when it seemed that I was in my darkest hour, and for that I'm eternally grateful.
Blessings to all,
Glenwood
Has anyone tried using the Monroe Institute Hemisync programs WITH holosync? Monroe's website says not to combine Hemisync with other brain entrainment programs, but some of their titles seem like they would be extremely beneficial for some of the overwhelm symptoms of Holosync.
Publius
So far they have not been helpful though with productivity, especially tackling unpleasant or boring tasks that need to be done--so that is why I'm trying the paraliminals. I'm happy, sometimes even get moments of almost euphoria for no reason, and I'm having lots of lucid dreams, but not accomplishing as much as I could... So I'm hoping the paraliminals which don't have brainwave entrainment, but just NLP/hypnosis techniques will be good addition to the Hemi-Sync.
My theory, untested as it is, is that somehow the act of consciousness during delta entrainment produces a state where the "ego" and "shadow" merge, because of the difficulty of thought at this level. The "awakening" is painful because it involves embracing those aspects of ourself we wish to deny. This is not something unique to Holosynch. Any program of meditation will eventually create an integrated state where the twin demons of the Ego and the Shadow will fight with the authentic "self." I've even had the experience with paraliminal tapes (e.g. having extrememly unpleasent memories pop up while listening to the Memory Supercharger, almost screaming out during Belief, having a relapse after Self Esteem Supercharger). The key to this probably is the detached perspective of witness. Especially, I say, when dealing with the past. Painful memories tend to be forgotten - I have often said aloud the word "no" when a painful memory spontaniously recollects. The key to actually dealing with it is to vividly remember the experience, and to name every emotion felt. The act of naming integrates the emotional limbic centers with the Boca region. This helps, as the limbic system has very little sense of "then" vs. "now" vs. "maybe." Naming an emotion affirms the reality, and also lets the whole mind accept that the experience is in the past, and that the entity has survived. It's something I learned from a Tantrik Black-Hat with a degree in psychology, so I'm not sure if this is coming from the psychologist or the lama, but either way I've found it to be very good advice.
So my goal is to make life even more pleasant by trying to teach myself to actually ENJOY doing things I normally hate or avoid doing. The issues with me are not emotional, I'm just plain lazy. I'd rather do something fun than something productive, but unpleasant. If my subconscious mind could believe that paying bills, cleaning up, working out, etc... was actually ENJOYABLE, then I could be more efficient AND happy!
I wonder how many weeks you spent on the CRI
program using the Awakening Prologue or did you just listen to the demo??
Another important fact you mentioned is that
h/s wiped out the positive gains from hemi-sync. The question is how positive are these
gains if they can be wipe-out?
Does this not indicate that the "results" you have achieved with hemi-sync are unstable or have to be enforced in order to
have the gains consistantly?
I am on the Purification level (P 1,0.5) of the h/s program.
Cheers,
[This message has been edited by Frodo02 (edited March 08, 2003).]
So I tried a variety of different products including Centerpointe. I tried Centerpointe for a couple of weeks while I stopped the Hemi-Sync. I completely stopped having lucid dreams and OBEs. Life was mundane again. Traffick sucked. Little things started to irritate me. I wasn't happy anymore. I stopped the Centerpointe and went back to Hemi-Sync. And slowly it all came back. I'm not sure what the benefits of Centerpointe were supposed to be, but I prefer being happy, enjoying life and having lucid dreams and OBEs.
I still tend to procrastinate and avoid doing things I dislike, but at least I'm happy. But that's my personality. I choose pleasure over pain. Every once and a while I will give Centerpointe a good college try, but each time it has the same results. It makes me less happy than I already was. So what's the point?
I'm naturally pretty happy without all this stuff, but Hemi-Sync increases it even more and allows me to enjoy and research lucid dreams, OBEs and other states of consciousness. Life can seem magical. I smile when I'm stuck in traffic. Maybe I'm just high on my own endorphins, but I like it, what can I say?
I've tried lots of brainwave entrainment products for inducing altered or higher states of consciousness including Kelly Howell's Brain-Sync, William Buhlman, Tom Kenyon & Brian Paulson, Dane Spotts (another waste of time), Dick Sutphen and Jeffrey Thompson. Besides Hemi-Sync, I have had the best experiences with Jeffrey Thompson's products, especially Theta Meditation System CD #2. I've also had some interesting experiences with Anna Wise's "High Performance Mind" and strangely enough, Aeoliah's "Anchoring Your Light Body" which is very "new-agey" but effective.
So, I've done a lot of research and discovered what works best for me. I put in a lot of time and money because it's something that really interests me, but if I can make recommendations to help other people save time and money, I try to.
To me, Hemi-Sync users are like Mac users and Mac users will know what I mean. It's something they defend and care about. It's not just another computer, it's special. Hemi-Sync users usually feel the same way about Hemi-Sync. It's just the best.
Thanks for your more detailed explanation.
If I would be a Centerpointe salesman or a h/s fanatic I would argue that because something like H/S can wipe out your gains there must be some
problems underneath. I would then suggest to use H//S to dig up
these problem in order to make your happiness more sustainable.
(I guess you must use the Hemi-sync tapes over and over to keep those
gains??)
I also would argue that a couple of weeks on H/S are not enough to judge
that program.
BUT, I AM NOT SAYING THIS. I think that your present NOT a hopefully
distant future happiness are most important.
So if Hemi-sync generates those results then STAY with it.
The only thing that make me wonder is that you are still searching for something better. This could indicate that you haven't found the real thing.
Cheers,
Regards
Nick.
Anyway, I was fortunate enough to have a happy childhood. So I probably don't have a whole lot of "stuff" that needs to come out. As I mentioned, I'm already a pretty happy (and extremely optimistic) person so my intention with these CDs were not to make me happy, but to reach higher states of consciousness and experiment further with lucid dreams and OBEs. The endorphin rush feeling was an unexpected side effect of the Hemi-Sync. I can live without it, and usually do, but it's a nice extra benefit.
For example, a runner can get an extra endorphin boost when he runs which is a nice bonus, but he could be perfectly happy also when not running.
There are, however, some positive long term effects for me from Hemi-Sync and the exploration of different states of consciousness. I tend to look at thinks from a higher perspective in the sense that I really do believe we are more than our physical bodies, and that alone can make life seem kind of magical.
In my opinion if something like h/s can make
your gains go away then these gains or happieness are not stable.
That does not mean that one has a traumatic
or generell unhappy childhood but nearly every lifing person has experienced some emotional up-sets at some times.
When these are cleared out with Hemi-sync or
h/s then one usually reaches a higher level.
Cheers
quote:
Originally posted by AlexK:
Justme I answered your question about L&S device on the other threadI would like to add; I found Brians project interesting and personally got the same effect using a L&S device because in many ways it is similar to bwgen. (just the additional effect of a light show). Because I can use the tapes with the L&S device I found that I have addtional variety and never needed to bother figuring out software to combine them as well as enjoying the mobility.
Alex
This is the first time I am posting to a forum. Please respond if I am using this incorrectly.
Question: What is L&S?
A gadget that flickers light onto your closed eyelid and plays entrainments sounds into your ears. Can be used for relaxation learning and meditation.
Alex
Sorry to hear you are not pleased with Holosync.
A few thoughts if I may.
You said: "I've never heard of meditaton involving sufffering"
How odd!
In fact if your meditation includes ONLY good feelings then it seems to me that you are not growing. I'm not saying that meditation only involves suffering but considering that you seemed to feel only good things from your other brain entrainent devices it sounds more like you are merely being "entertained"
I don't mean to sound harsh.
Actually for myself the Holosync also started out as....well...unimpressive.
However Bill states over and over: "Let whatever happens be okay" Its quite possible that even though it seems like it's your conscious mind telling you that they "dont work" it may in fact be your ego urging you not to go any further. The ego, that part of yourself that wants to keep you safe and free of pain and does very little for you as far as personal growth. In fact often holds you back...in your safety zone...so to speak.
In fact for a long time I felt nothing, except a great impatience for each listening session to be over. Being a stubborn so-and-so I stuck with it. Even then, it took several months before I noticed a difference. NOW I can say: "What a difference!"
Sometimes when you are walking in the fog the only thing to do is to keep walking until it clears...and see where you are:-)
I have used both and found the Holosync to be much more effective. The reason why I am writing this is to humbly encourage you to try the Holosync tapes again.
I hope this comes across as I intended, a friendly observation. Thanks
quote:
Originally posted by DreamLife:
I did try both programs together, but stopped Holosync because it was ruining all the positive effects of The Monroe Institute's Hemi-Sync. I have to admit that I'm a huge fan of the Monroe Institute products. I think they could possibly help release endorphins or other brain chemicals that just make you feel really content and happy and also help you open up to higher states of consciousness.So far they have not been helpful though with productivity, especially tackling unpleasant or boring tasks that need to be done--so that is why I'm trying the paraliminals. I'm happy, sometimes even get moments of almost euphoria for no reason, and I'm having lots of lucid dreams, but not accomplishing as much as I could... So I'm hoping the paraliminals which don't have brainwave entrainment, but just NLP/hypnosis techniques will be good addition to the Hemi-Sync.
<Bill Harris quote>
My outlook on the healing of so-called dysfunctional feelings and
behaviors is different than the current pop psychology outlook, which could
be described as "you've got all this 'stuff' inside you and you've got to
get it out and heal it." This is, in fact, the model framed by your
question -- that there's this "stuff" (the garbage) that has to be "lost,"
and how does the brain choose which stuff to lose?
Here is the model under which I operate. It comes from watching
thousands of people use this program over many years and gradually refining
the model as more info comes in so that the model more and more accurately
reflects what is actually happening. Luckily, I have a laboratory made up
of thousands of people making dramatic and rapid positive changes, and from
that we have learned a great deal about how people actually change and
become healthier emotionally.
Everyone has a threshold of what they can handle coming at them from
the world. If that threshold is exceeded, people immediately attempt to
cope with being pushed beyond it. This generally takes the form of anger,
depression, anxiety, fear, substance abuse, and a number of other
responses. In extreme cases, a person can even become psychotic (create an
alternate reality in an attempt to cope).
When people grow up with abuse or trauma of some kind, this threshold
for what they can handle coming at them does not mature in the same way it
would have had they not been traumatized. These people, therefore, have a
lower threshold than other people. Many things that might not bother
someone else push them into the above coping mechanisms. They are
ultra-sensitive, and the world is an uncomfortable (and sometimes very
painful) place for these people.
When people use our program, one of the main things that happens is
that this threshold goes up. As it does, they gain the ability to handle an
increasing level of whatever the world throws at them. For those with
extrememly low thresholds, at a certain point they bring their personal
threshold up to a "normal" level. From that point, it continues to improve
as they use the program to what you might call a "super-normal" level.
</Bill Harris quote>
I have not read Martin Seligman's Authentic Happiness, but Albert Seibert does make a reference to Seligman in the Resilience course, so I don't think they will have very differing ideas.
In the Resilience course, Paul Scheele and Albert Seibert refer to developing Resiliency as a process very similiar to what TC68 has described about Holosync - essentially that akin to physically working out and getting stronger, Resiliency is all about building the mental and physical strengths to handle the challenges, life throws at you.
My feeling is that Holosync provides a way of gradually challenging the mind (and body, in that you have to keep still for half hour to an hour), so that the threshold (ie "strength") for handling stress and challenge goes up. Along the way, mental "junk" is released, which in turn releases even more energy for the mind-body to get stronger and handle more challenges, and this in turn increases the options for the mind to become more creative and intelligent.
In summary, all roads seem to lead to the same goal - the question is, which way is the quickest, and which methods can be combined to provide the most synergy for the most effective and permanent change to take place.
I learned about Natural Brilliance from Bill Harris at Centerpointe. It's funny that the topic of this discussion is "Natural Brilliance v CentrePointe Program".
Thank you Glenwood for an awsome post. I appreciate that. Others too. I learned more about Centerpointe and holosync from you guys. I started the program about 2 months ago after listening to the online free demo for 2 weeks. Always wanted to do meditation but lazy enough never to proceed, so Centerpointe took the laziness away with a CD as the technology takes you to alpha to theta to delta.
I'd have to say that when you look at your nails every morning & evening, you don't see them growing and one day you realize that it hurts you to type and WOW, your nails grew so much. Centerpointe is like that as Bill explained. It first creates neural pathways in your brain that currently does not exist. If there were no tunnels and bridges, I couldn't get out of New York city. So someone had to create them first so people can go in and out of the city. Centerpointe first creates the neural pathways in your brain so that you are prepared for higher versions or even other programs, for example, Bill says Natural Brilliance would work best if you are using Centerpointe already. And Light & Sound users - well, at some point your brain gets accustomed to that frequency and then you get nothing new.
Dreamlife- I feel for you. But see, if I have a virus in my body, I need to take antibiotics to get that virus out/destroyed so that I can get well. If I suppress that virus with a medicine, one day the virus will get used to the medicine and it will adapt and learn to bother me again. Like mutation. I don't use Monroe products but Bill mentions a difference in his site: http://www.centerpointe.com/discussion/faq.cfm#23. So I'd say that if you don't get the bad stuff out of your brain, you can only suppress them for so long and in the long run, it can hurt you. I pray to God you stay well and everyone else too. Holosync cleans up your database first, which is your brain, and then you can use anything you want. But since you already paid and have the CD, just listen to it and get your garbage out. I didn't notice anything the first 2 months but now day by day I'm learning something new by using holosync. A.P. costs about $150 or so but also has 1 year warranty. There is no commitment needed for anything.
I've studied it,parts therapy and have heard of Emotional Freedom Therapy and may sign up for NLP master practitioner course.
I've done alot over the last few years as you me see.
I am/was looking into Learning Strategies Corp products but as they have not answered my email queries, am sceptical of them, much like holosync.
Hemi-sync have always answered my emails. Their products are pleasant but I never experienced OBE's or anything like that.
The Sedona Method,I tried only a few times. So I don't know about it. I'd say its okay.But I like quick results. I'm weary of companies that send alot of marketing material. In this regard, one product has been affordable and efficient and has an absense of marketing material- and because it is has multiple frequencies-reflecting the multi-frequency state nature of the brain through the day have found it effective from day one, and refreshing.
I think they have more than one level from playing it in mediaplayer but like that the don't promote this fact.
they're at www.awakenedminds.com and their CD contains alpha-delta-alpha tracks for something like €39 approx. They send the product out pretty fast too. Since listening to their cd i am not inclined to go any further with hollo-sync although i like the centerpoint bell and flute sounds. In short their levels are too-expensive and offer-kill on marketing material.If they were half their current price then I'd probably continue for another level, but having listened to my insight cd from awakened minds have decided not to go further with hollo-sync.
On Monroe Institute, I have 6 of their waves and many of their human-plus cds.But these cds have not brought me the results that insight cd and a cd's from I bought 2 weeks ago from www.wendi.com. Her cd's have binaural sound on some tracks which are beautifully masked with music.I find her voice and presentation, appealing and superb and find that when the DVDs I purchased not working this week, they unreservedly offered to post me duplicates or VHS version-whichever I wished. In addition I bought a weight loss course from them just at the time they were updating it to include binaural sound and as they were not sure my course was the new version, they sent me the binaural cds as soon as i replied to their newsletter which made me aware of this.Her cds incorporate hypnosis,nlp and parts therapy(secondary gain resolution process therapy).
very long reply...hope it is of value to you all!
Good Luck
I'm glad that you find the two programs (h/s & NB) complementing each other. I've just ordered the NB course whislt I've been on the h/s program nearly three years. I've currently taking a week off from h/s to help assimilate the benefits of it. It seems to be working.
Anyway, I hope to get some great insights from NB. If you care to add any further insigts to NB course, feel free to do so, as I won't probably receive my copy for a few weeks.
see ya's
I am too on the h/s program for now four years. I will completing purification level
one probably in September. I already have the next level here since I am an "inner circle" member. That makes the program really affordable. For less then $ 2000 one
will get the whole program.
So far I can point to out similar results like Ikkyu.
When I started I expected of course some faster results believing CRI's ads. However,
I realized this the kind of American advertising which is nearly always overzealous often boadering on dishonesty.
That's why people outside the US are often very sceptical.
Cheers,
I do have the funds to become and inner circle member, but having rung centerpoint to have my earlier question answered, I never received a callback! Thus I am more inclined to stop with holosync and continue with awakened minds-insight program.
What promotion by LSC are you talking about? Because I am about to order the NB cds and I'll wait for your post. Right now it'll cost me $160+. Please let me know what promotion and how much you paid, maybe I can talk to them about it and get a deal. I am using A.P. and I think NB will go fine with it.
Does anyone know about www.higherbalance.com? They sound very interesting, but seems like a twin brother of CRI, especially their FAQ page.
LLL
Michael Saikali
= )
Tore
who've actually had use of the tapes when on a trip... but mainly use the cds to make mp3.. I love my ultaportable mp3player. Personal Genius and Selfesteem Supercharger just an arms reach away.
Alex
Am checing out the higher balance website suggested.
Nothing like developing more overwhelm, no?
"I don't like scam!"
Eh, I really do feel that meditation gave me pretty much the same results as holosync or hemisync.
Dreamlife, which hemisync products did you find worked best for you. I'm curious. I played around with them for a while. Like you, I didn't find they helped productivity one jot. They were, however, very entertaining.
Re: centerpointe ... because binaural beat frequencies are at a lower pitch, this makes an amazing transformative experience? Or maybe the PLACEBO EFFECT (belief) along with plain old meditation makes a transformative experience?
You get a lot of the same purgative experiences and depth through using a mantra a la TM or the relaxation respose or doing za-zen (pretzeling your legs, sitting up straight, and counting breaths) as with the tapes. Frankly, I think with meditation you're more involved in the process. Some guy making lots of money on hellishly overpriced tapes is not "doing it" for you.
Frankly, making an investment in a lot of ways (time, money, belief, a little bit of self-image [this has to work, or I am a fool for investing so much of myself into it ... so I'll make it work]) in following a program is much of what makes it work. You make a product that makes people feel, in some way, extraordinary, put a bunch of interesting philosophical/spiritual/psychological rhetoric on top of it, get people believing and investing in it ... and you got something that will make itself work in whatever ways people expect it or want it to. And even if it doesn't, people will make themselves believe it does. It's better than seeing a dupe whenever you cross a mirror.
Listening to binaural beat frequencies every day will most certainly have *some* sort of effect upon you. How much different is it from meditating or just being quiet if you *believe* in that activity the same way? And anyway, how does a person know that the "effects" of holosync are actually the effects of holosync and wouldn't happen anyway? Maybe they are products of belief and expectation?
Perhaps it's just plain old totemism and fetishism. It's been known to work. Repeat after me, three times: the tape is the talisman.
IMO, Centerpointe's intense effort at marketing (read: lying) speaks volumes about their ethics.
But, to quote Guns 'n Roses: use your illusion. Whatever floats your boat.
Is this about right and wrong or about beliefs that are effective? Believing Centerpointe to be a scam can't be one.
I always say to myself that I will enjoy movies no matter what when I see them. I will remember to use the technique when I get around to trying Holosync. Thanks in advance!
Cya!
Tore
When continuing investments of approximately $300 a pop are concerned, I would suggest skepticism rather than unreasoned belief and self-conditioning.
[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 03, 2003).]
So what's it worth? What's the price for happiness or a little peace of mind?
If I could depend only on my consciously directed thoughts instead of precious talismans, I would. I'm just not there yet (at least I tell myself).
Although you seem to have a point about their advertising. I read about a lot of people who say that you shouldn't believe Centerpoint's hype. But they do seem to give transformative effects to people using them. If I've got the money and don't feel like meditating I won't hold myself back.
What is the greatest personal transformation or such that you've experienced? What did you use or happend to you?
Have a nice day!
Tore
The truth is, there doesn't need to be a price on personal development. You assume the products deliver on the promise, which is what I strongly question in the first place.
I have had tons of experience with products using binaural beat frequencies. I have had tons of experience with different kinds of meditation. I have used light and sound machines.
I don't know exactly who it is here you think you're fooling with the hackneyed marketing rhetoric that has been rehashed and reused by just about everyone selling some self-improvement product. Maybe yourself?
If you want to buy the tapes or CDs, then buy them. It's money out of your pocket, not mine. I've tried them. As far as I can tell, you can do much better for yourself by simply learning a mantra and putting as much belief in yourself and that process as people do in Centerpointe's product.
My greatest personal transformations have come about through natural life processes and not anything from a tape or directed therapy. Basically, in caring for my nephew for a good amount of time I was able to experience things as a child vicariously through him and be an adult as well. The fact that he was vulnerable and beautiful and going to experience pain, perhaps, like I experienced when I was young was something I learned to deal with all over again. As an adult being with this lovely little tot, I knew I was pretty helpless. I started contemplating things from a parental point of view for the first time, and this lead to many changes in my thinking and experience.
No tapes. No CDs. Just life.
Life is always the best teacher. When it comes to real learning, I think its the golden path.
Not to say tapes and talking and what not have no value, they do. But I think people rely on them too much.
Baquai mentions a point that I completely neglected. The claim that these tapes put you in the same mental state as a skilled meditator of several years is outrageous and stupid.
Everything can certainly boiled down to a brain state. Sure. Just like you can boil down someone to a two word description, like "nice guy" or "big jerk." These descriptions, however, are far from exhaustive and lack a whole lot of crucial information.
The state of a meditator is not just a "brain state." It is a state in his or her own brain, which contains an ongoing chemistry and bunches and bunches of neural-connections, dendritic whatsits, and glial thingamabobs. It's a big, honkin, complex mess of different stuff. It's unique and formed, partially, from hours and hours (if not years and years) of meditation.
Statements like "if you fly on a concord to location x or walk there, you still end up in location x" are patently absurd. The person who walks is different from the person who flies because of his experiences, time for reflection upon them, and blah blah blah. I am not exactly sure that I need to point this stuff out, but when people repeat Centerpointe advertising it makes me think that there are basic thoughts that they are putting aside because they just want the neato meditation CDs.
In fact, I am willing to bet that 20 minutes, 60 minutes, 540 hours of listening to awakening (funny, it should be called "Put your reason to sleep and hand over your money Levels 1, 2, 3, etc.") you will not be where someone who has meditated for 15 years is. Sorry.
During and after listening to the "Prepare to be screwed out of your money Prologue," I can say I was no where near where I was after like 2 months of zazen. No way.
Ok. I'm exhausted on this. I'll shut up for good.
Irrational and not the result of a seasoned meditator... Hmmm. Depends on the meditator. Read some Zen stories, and you'll find my rhetoric much less severe than the actions of meditators much more seasoned than I. I disagree with your assessment of my conclusions as unreasoned.
If you've gotten improvements, Nick, then good for you. The question I have is just what was fundamental in the creation of those results? Did you need the Centerpointe material? Could you have gotten the same results if you had just sat there doing mindfulness exercises? We disagree on the answers to that question, and that is the crux of it.
As to your statement that people meditating go slower and get less benefits: balderdash. It's an easy statement to make, but a hard one to back up.
Long ago, I have already started doing what you have suggested, Nick, concerning Centerpointe "literature" that I receive. It goes straight into the trash.
[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 04, 2003).]
quote:
Originally posted by babayada:
I'll shut up for good.
"...and then I think I'll ramble on a little more."
I don't know which of the two is worse, babayada for using "crux" and "balderdash" when "pivotal point" and "nonsense" will do, or baquai for using Holosync for a whopping 3 months and saying it doesn't deliver on what it says it does. Spoken like someone who has yet to read the Centerpointe literature that gets sent out.
Of course, you're both entitled to your opinions and your million dollar words. If you both think you need to be putting some "effort" in by doing regular meditation as a way of feeling you've accomplished something, by all means, go right ahead. But personally, I'm one to think that Bill Harris delivers on what he promises. Have I gone into the deeper levels and seen all of these benefits? No, but it makes sense to me.
If traditional meditation is so good, then why are you both considering other alternatives? Or have you both just decided to take a couple steps down this road, looked further along the path and said, "Screw this"? From what I've read in the Centerpointe literature, getting the benefits of meditation has absolutely zero to do with the experiences you have during the meditation. But now I'm just rambling to get my two cents in. Hopefully once I've used Holosync for a few years, I'll realize how pointless these debates really are.
[This message has been edited by Solarimus (edited July 05, 2003).]
I don't consider balderdash or crux to be million dollar words. I value them at around 50 cents, max. Disestablishmentarianism or the like is closer to a million dollar word. More syllables, see? And, hey, at least I don't use french. Notice that I didn't once use vis-a-vis or jouissance. It could be worse.
I don't know how sincere you will think me when I say that these are the words that first come to mind as I am typing. I do admit that I find it amusing that it annoys you. I don't find stuff like that annoying. As a writer and fan of George Carlin, I do feel that it would be appropritate to criticize me for using "actual truth" when "truth" would suffice.
I know I said I'd shut up, and I didn't. I feel a little bit guilty about that, but then someone came along and made a response, to which I felt oblidged to respond.
If what Bill Harris says makes sense to you, then we differ in both reasoning and opinions. Not much more a person can say regarding those facts.
Why did I consider alternatives to traditional meditation? Curiosity.
Did I say "screw this" to traditional meditation? Yes. Several times. Why? Well, zazen can be pretty freaking painful. Physically and psychologically. Full lotus, sitting absolutely straight (luckily we weren't hit by sticks), and trying desperately to count ten complete breaths without a stray thought ... painful. Add to that the inner craziness that can happen during meditation, and you got the perfect activity for any willing masochist. It's been described as having a huge ball of molten metal in your throat that you can neither swallow nor spit up. TM is a lot easier, but there were times I just got lazy and decided to say to hell with it. Currently, I meditate sporatically. I don't use holosync because I think (here it comes) it's balderdash.
I have heard the same thing from different sources about the benefits of meditation having little to do with the actual experiences of it. That you shouldn't strive for a special feeling, or what have you. Go with it, whatever it is is the message. I agree with that. About effort, it does feel better to me when I feel that I am participating in the process and not having it done to me by a tape or another person. It feels more personal and more valid. However, that is personal and has nothing to do with the efficacy or lack of efficacy of a process. That's just personal taste.
As to these discussions being pointless ... well, depends on your point of view. I find it very entertaining. Anyway, in a thousand years, maybe more maybe less, from now ... everything the human race has done can be considered pointless.
[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 06, 2003).]
[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 06, 2003).]