Posted By: NeoZon Who were you before you were born? - 08/30/04 08:27 PM
Who will you be after you breathe your last breath?

What does Paul mean here?

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 08/31/04 02:12 AM
I think this is a meditative question. Will you have regrets or fulfullment when you look back on your lifes work.

Of course, stay tuned, we will all find out when we breathe the last breathe.


Posted By: Edmilio Re: Who were you before you were born? - 08/31/04 05:16 AM
Originally posted by NeoZon:
Who will you be after you breathe your last breath?

What does Paul mean here?

I think he means what energy did your "self" come from, is in now and will eventually go back into.

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/01/04 06:50 PM
Well after contemplating this question again. I have never really liked these kind of questions because all you have is here and now. To go off on a tangent like this doesn't do much for you.

You will still be you whether you find yourself in never never land, or the land of spirits. You will still be you. Like Buckaroo Banzai said "No matter where you go there you are."

When you take your last breath you will be in that moment. Enjoy it.


Posted By: Mark-11 Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/02/04 09:15 AM
How do we know that we won't just cease to exist after that last breath? How can you tell for sure that consciousness does persist after your last breath? It could all just be wishful thinking. I would like to think that we do exist after death but I can’t just blindly believe it just because it’s a comforting thought.

Yes its true that you can’t create or destroy energy E=MC*C etc but that doesn’t mean that you can’t destroy consciousness.

Has anyone got any views that would put my mind at rest?


Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/02/04 06:15 PM

In one of the final CD's, the dinner with Paul he talks about past lives. In his experience working with people he found that they all had prior experiences of some sort.

In most all the eastern religions there is reference to this same thing. Many have all these levels of Heaven and Hell. Personally I think Heaven is where you make it and how you make it.

Why I don't like these kind of questions is that they introduce uncertainty into your thinking. To answer them is like the Journey to Shambala, which is compared to hitting your head against the wall. It feels really good when you stop.

In order to Be, Do and Have anything you must build on certainies. You know if you have a certain belief system you get this result. You know if you develope a Money Consciousness you will attract money into your life.

I consider a uncertainty a very negative thought. Like getting a wrench thrown in your turbine. If the teacher is there who can introduce this concept to you and guide you through it's meaning that is different.

What you can control is your feeling towards the subject of death. You can release on this feeling and get yourself to the fabled "Hootless" State where you really don't give a hoot anymore. this is a certainty you can build on.

In somethings I really like the Dali Lama and remember his saying. "If something is wrong and we can fix it then there is nothing to worry about, we will fix it. If there is something wrong and we can't fix it then there is nothing to worry about, we can't fix it."

My opinion is that you will still be you and all of your memories are buried deep inside you. I kinda think it is a "Change of State" like water turning into steam. Since we are part of nature we solidify and return like the rain.


Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/02/04 07:05 PM
And if you find that these memories reside inside of you then it should prove that your consciousness is intact and whole.


Posted By: InquiringMind Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/03/04 03:36 AM
My reply is directed more towards the topic, "Who were you before you were born", which can probably also be applied to the second question, "who are you after you are dead", since I imagine, you go back to the same state (depicting the circle, as mentioned in ancient Hindu philosophy, where everything is in one big circle, going from life and then to death, and then being re-born, and so on ...).

My feeling is that the question forces one to contemplate a state how it must be before one is born, a thoughtless uncorrupted state, with no pre-conceptions or ideas, just pure perception, a state of looking out, of observing; before one is born into this world, before one is hypnotized by culture, thought, concepts, ideas - essentially a state of pure being - or to put it in terms of AFL, before one is put into the various "trances".

A number of the ancient philosophers and mystical poets, including Rumi, have mentioned in their writings and poetry, that children are by their vary nature, spiritual. And this maybe because children because of being so young and less exposed to life and the world, are closer to that pure state of being, than an adult who has grown up, learnt, and absorbed the thoughts, ideas, concepts, culture, and most importantly, the artificial limitations the world has taught. Essentially the person has been hypnotized into the trances of the society and world he or she has grown up in.

When one dies, one essentially goes back to that pure state of being, until one is re-born and comes back into this world again.

Posted By: NeoZon Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/03/04 03:12 PM
Who were we, before we were born? Can you remember? Can you really remember billions of years before your sperm cell meet up with your egg cell? Truly, that is how all of us got here. Human life definitely begins at this moment. How, else can human life start? They are just the facts. Are, we suppose to believe that we are some type of conscious electron that makes the impossible jump into a human body, and then are able to make that jump out when we die? Who were we, before we were born? Who will we be after are last breath is taken? What is a belief? And, what is factual data? When a human dies, where does that human go? Of course you still exist after you die. But, what about your awareness? The most important thing about being alive is, knowing that youre alive. Is it such a far fetching idea that are awareness can cease to exist for all eternity after are death. It could very much be that we will be exactly the way we were before we were born. Who are we before we were born?

[This message has been edited by NeoZon (edited September 03, 2004).]

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/03/04 07:46 PM
My Mother had done a genealogy chart, worked on it over twenty years, still on paper, hand written with picutres. I took this info and scanned it onto computer for her and made it easier to move the data around. When I did this I had a very interesting experience, I made this connection to all these people who had a hand in my creation. I was able to look back and see (maybe not all) how many thousands of paople it took to make me, from all different walks of life.

I realized that all their life experiences were inside of me up until the time the seed was passed on.

Now I don't remember what I had for dinner last week right off the top of my head but I could work backwards and figure it out. Alot of work which would probably make me hungary so might as well forget that and get some real food.

I tend to think there are 2 parts to the human being which is the body and the spirit (includes your consciousness). The body is blessed with all the memories of the physical that relate to survival and success. As a Spiritual Being I believe I am a guest here. As a Spiritual Being memories like this really don't matter.

To answer these questions you need to calm your mind and look inside, you are the only one who can truely answer this.

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/04/04 12:11 AM
Personally, I like these kinds of questions, and I was kind of thrilled when Paul asked them, because I had asked them to myself on several occasions.

I believe these questions have to do with consciousness itself and the idea of death. In a sense, not being alive, or corporeal, is already a part of our history, so I believe the experience after death will be pretty much like the experience before birth. If there is nothing there is nothing, you have gone through it (or not gone through it) before, so, really, there is nothing to fear.

I think the point of it is the experience of consciousness ... so saying that all we have is now is very pertinent to the question.

Posted By: Eric_G Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/05/04 06:42 AM
My first feeling during the session was that I can be in this very moment my true self, who is before my thoughts and feelings, who was before my birth and who will be after my death (even without thoughts or feelings).

From my perspective these questions are about this very moment rather than past or present.

On the other hand, future is a series of moments that can be used for worrying about the past, being in the moment or worrying about the future. What can I do in this moment to be able to be in the moment also in the future Practice makes us masters

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/05/04 09:01 AM
My feeling on this subject of death, as we know it is, that it is a transformation into a higher state. We get glimpses of this when we connect to higher consciousness or super consciousness and those moments when have this divine inspiration and the universe opens to us for an instant and we know all and see all. Sometimes coming out of a dream state before waking I have this feeling of a complete connection to everything, all of time past, present and future, all knowledge, all experience, etc. It is very brief but really disapointing when I wake up completely.

It cannot be compared to life as we know it now. The experience of transforming to that state may or may not be pleasant but once complete I doubt you will have any regrets.

People in near death or death experiences mention that they had no fear and there was a beautiful feeling. In fact they regretted having to come back here after experiencing that. I have not heard anything that really makes it sound as though it is something to fear from those that have experienced it.

One of my favorite stories is of a ship wrecked sailor who landed in the Cook Islands in the 1800's sometime. He lived there appx 3 years and when he was "rescued" he had three wifes, had gained 40 pounds and had never been healthier in his life.

He returned to England and in 6 months lost all of his weight, his health suffered and his hair began falling out. The stress of the daily news and family bickering made him realize how good he had it back on his ship wrecked island. He jumped back on a ship and had them deposit him back on the same island to reclaim his wives and old life where he regained his health and lived to a ripe old age. His saying was that "Today lasts forever and tomorrow never comes"


Posted By: ShaneXEdge Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/06/04 12:04 AM
Live like it's your last day, yet as if you have a thosand years to go.

Don't know where I heard it. Nice one to live by.

Shane RMT

Posted By: Eric_G Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/07/04 06:36 PM
Those who are not yet familiar with the work by Michael Ruiz it could be facinating to notice the correlation between this discussion and his work.

For example >>>a thoughtless uncorrupted state, with no pre-conceptions or ideas, just pure perception<<< & >>>People in near death or death experiences mention that they had no fear and there was a beautiful feeling. In fact they regretted having to come back here after experiencing that.<<<

He had near death experience, descibed here by jeffdengr. What he decided(due to his family background), was to start practicing how to enter this state already during the living... and he succeeded.

Miquels work is very facinating and what is grate is that hes actualy living today. Yet there is clear correlation to the teachings of persons like Buddha... + hes work is grate companion with the AFL, they speak about the very same issues (at least from my perspective).

His latest book is called The Voice of Knowledge and it's about thoughles uncorrupted state and why we tend to avoid this as humans...

Posted By: SteveBCA Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/08/04 01:29 AM
I agree, love this book by Miguel. It's one of the few that I let loiter around my nightstand after reading it, so that I could pick it up at odd moments and re-read a passage. Most books go directly back on the shelf.

Posted By: Edmilio Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/08/04 05:11 AM
Our conciousness because of its limiting beliefs and because it has forgotten the experience of higher conciousness, fears losing the self.

Once you experience the one energy that flows through us all then you will realize that what we were before, we still are and will always be, and the fear, a lower energy, can not be present anymore.

This is an experience and unless you've experienced it then all the questions can attempt to disprove the existence and reality of that experience. (What if it's another illusion? etc...)

The feeling exercise leads you into that experience, and in that experience is a knowing that can be explained with words but difficult to prove.

I suggest anyone who doubts to try the experience before making any final judgements. It can't hurt.

I read Miguel Ruiz's book on Love Mastery and enjoy his writing very much.

Peace, Love and JOY

Posted By: Frodo02 Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/08/04 05:21 AM
Hi Folks,

This is an interesting topic. For NeoZon: In my opinion Neo-Tech is correct in believing that after the physical death the person (persona = identity) for instance NeoZon will be gone forever.

There was never a YOU before with that
individual I-ness and that I-ness will disappear with death.

All this near death experience are most likely functions of dying brain.

All the past life memories are makings of the mind. The mind can create anything and for instance store a repressed feeling into these experience that is something
we don't want to feel or experience right now.

So under this viewpoint past life therapies this can have a value in relieving these repressed emotions or memories.

However, many of us probably realize that we are not a lump of meat only, that we not
only someone who thinks and feels.

Sometimes, especially when you do meditation you realize that there is something which is just aware and completely unattached.

This is probably not a creation of the mind but a real and basic experience which is you
or us. This will never die and was never born.

Back to Neo-Tech: From the viewpoint of preserving the individual I-ness for a while it is certainly a value to have our lives extended as far as possible.

In other words striving for immortality but knowing that we will never achieve 100%.


Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/09/04 08:37 AM
Then again, we might just be worm-food, and it's light's out, boys.

Who knows? I suppose we all will sooner or later. Whether you live your life like there is no tomorrow or not, it will not stay the reaper. But, then again, it's about how you live rather then when you die, eh?

Posted By: SHEANIMA Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/17/04 01:10 AM
This may come as a novel idea to many, but at that point in time, I will return to my spiritual home, which is Heaven, to my spiritual parents, which make up God. This life here, is no different than being sent off to a private school in some far-off distant land, only to return home when the year is up, or when you have graduated. It's as simple as that.

This belief may not satisfy everyone, but it's abundantly sufficient for me, and I'm happy with it. That way, I can get on with the business of living, instead of contemplating my navel.

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/17/04 10:30 PM
I like to get on with the contemplation of living more than the business end of it.

I wouldn't call the idea novel, Sheanima. Most people are pretty familiar with some variation of it.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited September 17, 2004).]

Posted By: Mark-11 Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/18/04 12:02 AM
If you fly a thousand million miles into outer space and look back at the Earth you will see a tiny dot just like a grain of sand on the beach against a background of billions of dots. Its sobering to realize that every human thought that ever existed emanated from that dot; every Napoleonic war, the pain of every stone-age man with a toothache came from that dot, every act of terror, death and destruction came from that dot, the pain of every starving child wanting for a spoonful of rice.

Who were we before we were born??? I wonder just how significant we really are. I feel this puts us into context.

Do we really exist before and after death or is it just a trick of the mind making us think there is more?

The AFL course teaches us that the mind does play tricks…


Posted By: SHEANIMA Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/18/04 02:11 AM
And tricks of negative entities can play with the mind.

Posted By: SHEANIMA Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/18/04 03:10 AM
Originally posted by babayada:
I like to get on with the contemplation of living more than the business end of it.

I wouldn't call the idea novel, Sheanima. Most people are pretty familiar with some variation of it.


I made a bet with myself that if I used that word, "business", someone would interpret my use of it as a money-making enterprise.

What this means is, using my Webster's Dictionary, "purposeful activity; mission; activity requiring time and effort, usually the avoidance of distractions". Not that I was discounting recreation, in any way. I just said it in such a way to make a point.

And when I mentioned what I said as a "novel" idea, I was being somewhat sarcastic.

Most people are also pretty familiar with mathematical variations of what equals 4. Some say that 1 + 3 = 4. Then others state that 2 + 2 = 4. Of course, someone else will come along and claim that 3 + 1 = 4. As you said, most people are familiar with these variations, because they are conclusive, and therefore reliable and useful, as they share a common sum.

But where I draw the line, is questioning something that is already absolute: "Do 2 + 2 REALLY equal 4?? Is 4 actually 4, or is it zero in reality? The mind does play tricks, you know. Hmmm.... let us contemplate."

That kind of "math" will not build houses, or effect inventions. It will not balance books or measure a child's progress in school. With nonsensical math, nothing would ever get done, and everything would be a cluster f_.

Working is constructive, playing is constructive; laughing, loving, and praying are constructive. But doubting the very existence of 4, or asserting its value as insignificant, is NOT constructive.

I don't mean any disrespect against those who think along such lines, but I see it as just a big waste of time.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Let me clarify emphatically, that by no means are any my comments on this thread intended to specifically challenge in any way, the Abundance for Life course. On the contrary, I have deep respect and appreciation for the programs that Paul and Pete provide for us, to utilize to our best advantage. I choose to approach Learning Strategies' products with the assumption of neutrality on the issue of religion. To me, they are not meant to destroy our individual faiths, but to enhance and fulfill all positive truths which are held as self-evident. As a free-thinking, wisdom-seeking Christian believer, this is how I approach the content of their programs, and I believe that this has allowed me to gain the greatest possible benefit from them.

[This message has been edited by SHEANIMA (edited September 19, 2004).]

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/19/04 09:45 AM
I disagree.

Sometimes examining statements such as does 2 and 2 really equal 4 can be very enlightening.

Sometimes contemplation exists in a vacuum. Sometimes it's a game played for sheer enjoyment. Symbols get manipulated and pushed around, but does anything ever really change? Sometimes, no.

Lao Tzu might say that when nothing happens it is a very good thing. It is not a danger when ideas mean nothing. In contrast, it is when the ideas of people are taken too seriously and acted upon that wars begin.

There's another side of it, too. The theme of does 2 + 2 = 4 or not plays very nicely in Orwell's 1984. The book has had a lot of impact on many people.

Two and two not equalling four might be a message about not judging a book by its cover. It can point to the fact that mathematical equalities may not necessarily exist in reality but are products of the human mind as it interacts with the world around us. That is, mathematics is more a descriptions of how human brains interact with reality than reality itself. Absolutes are not necessarily absolutely absolute. It depends on the situation and your point of view.

And what can come of conjecture like that? Well, the field of NLP for one thing. And what did NLP help give rise to? Paraliminal tapes and courses.

Do not dismiss so-called useless conjecture as ephermeral and useless. It is the foundation of many of the wonders and horrors of the modern world.

Asking questions that no one else will ask, because they are stupid or nonsensical is exactly what some of the greatest thinkers in the world (namely the rebellious Einstein) have done. It is this kind of thinking that is behind some of the greatest innovation.

It's in the questions you do not ask, the areas you do not explore, the ideas you do not have (and thus the things you do not do) that there is the largest domain for discovery and growth.

It is also the source some of the greatest enjoyment there is, too.

And it all depends on your perspective.

I will note that I did not miss your equation of the presence of an afterlife and divine being with something that is established fact within a system of reasoning that is, more or less, rock solid. I don't agree here.

The way I see it, for what it's worth, is that the existence of an afterlife is an area of speculation and not absolute knowledge. I take it for granted that there *may* be an afterlife, and then again there may not be. For me, it teeter totters. It gives me breathing room. There are distinct benefits of just being a meat-bag with no soul, no god, and no afterlife. There are also detriments. The same holds true for the existence of a god, soul, and afterlife. And then there is that interesting and strange area of possibilities that is neither and/or both. Maybe the reality is not only stranger than we think, but stranger than we *can* think (I don't remember where that quote is from, but I like it).

Side note: I don't know why you feel you need a disclaimer about disgareement with the course. The LSC police will not break down your door if you disagree or criticize. I have plenty of times, and they haven't caught me yet.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited September 19, 2004).]

Posted By: SHEANIMA Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/19/04 09:32 PM
What you say is very plausible, babayada, but in denying that which is absolute and constant, one denies by default, the work of love - the ultimate of both in its purest form - which ignites, permeates, and furthers the essence of all good. Without the constant and absolute, there would be no foundation upon which to build, scientifically or spiritually. If the beginning of all life as we know it to be, had been attempted without them, it would have never begun. In order for the cycle of life to be perpetual, certain fixed laws have to be set in motion. From this perspective, it would look ludicrous to suppose those laws to be an incorrect calculation or non-existent, even for the sake of "meditation". As a wise man climbs higher up the stairs, he neither disregards the floor upon which the stairs are laid, nor discounts the steps below. For he knows that without these things, he would be incapable of ascending.

A house cannot initiate the construction of itself. It can only begin as a dream, or concept, in the mind of the designer; then a team of professionals are typically contracted to complete what has been imaged. The designer's idea is eventually brought to fruition by that inner vision inspired by hope, faith, and passion, all of which become infused with the project. To work is an act of love. To build is an act of lifting up and giving to life, to share yourself with others, as those deep, inner expressions are manifested.

All of this may sound simple-minded to a few, but if you've been around children for any length of time, I'm sure you've found that some of the most profound comments can come from the mind of a simple, young child, because that child has not yet been fully indoctrinated with formal methods of thought. Just because an answer isn't enigmatic or scientifically sophisticated, does not mean it is not sound.

To question the existence of our creator(s), would be as the cells of your body doubting the existence of babayada (since I don't know your real name). Even a newborn baby whose eyes are not yet opened, who has just been removed from his mother's body and has not yet been held in her arms, knows that she exists, because he has been with her for the previous 9 months in another dimension of life. And when he is placed to her bosom, he recognizes her and becomes nourished and secure.

It goes against the laws of nature to deny one's source, because recognizing that source will mean the difference between survival and extinction.


By the way, that note at the bottom of my post was not meant to be a disclaimer. I was simply stating a clear-cut fact. I place high value on good communication, and I will go the extra mile in an effort avoid any possible misunderstandings. I've found that as a matter of course, people often misinterpret, so it should be our responsibility as communicators to clarify anything which might hinder that understanding.

As I stated in one of my other posts, I haven't taken the Abundance for Life Course, as of yet. Until which time I've had a chance to personally experience it, or have been made aware of something about it that I find questionable, the only opinion I will rightly hold is that of general appreciation. Any disagreements I've voiced in this thread were prompted by the overall *responses* to the original post, and were not targeted at the actual quoted question of Paul's, or the AFL course itself.

If you really knew me, you'd know that I am very genuine. With the combined help of Learning Strategies' Paraliminals and sound reasoning, I've conquered the typical and atypical habits of fear. With the help of my personal faith, I no longer harbor any grudges or regrets. And I have never been one to play manipulative mind games. My heart travels light, with absolutely no baggage. I do my best not to criticize a person, but instead address the words, thoughts, or deeds of that person. Nevertheless, I do not make a habit of criticizing, because I am reminded of a quote by Zig Ziglar, "No one erects a statue to a critic." Anyone with an IQ of 52 can complain and find fault, but it takes an extraordinary person to build humanity and move beyond the walls of mediocrity.


I have to admit, babayada, that I completely understand where you're coming from. I really do. There was a time, maybe 20 years ago, I would have been susceptible to crossing that line of reason to non-reason, for the sheer fantasy of it. I would have chimed in, right along with you on it. But I am now very aware of the subtle sociological, psychological, and even political changes which will inevitably occur over the generations, as a result of meditating on certain eastern philosophical ideologies and practicing patterned nonsensical reasoning. The end results of those changes go directly against the grain of my core beliefs, and I will not take part in them. I truly believe that the most important type of logic to have in one's arsenal, is solid, good old-fashioned American pioneering "horse-sense". Joined with a healthy degree of flexibility and refined intuition, you can't go wrong.

This is where I stand, and I remain firm in it. To each his own. If it makes you happy to think the way you've chosen, if it serves you well in life and gives you joy, if it allows you to become the best that you can be, and if it fuels you to give of yourself by lightening the load of the less fortunate, without increasing the load of the more fortunate on an involuntary basis, then that's great.

[This message has been edited by SHEANIMA (edited September 20, 2004).]

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/21/04 04:42 AM
I was reading a story the other day about Absolute Truth and Relative Truth. We could never know the Absolute Truth about something because there are so many wheels turning at the same time, consciously it is beyond us. What we can know is the Relative Truth that affects our everyday living in the here and now, what applies you our lives.

I use numbers alot to get a ballpark idea of the power of electricity. I know 90 amps using a welder can either blow a hole in 1/2 inch of steel or it can fill it stronger than it was depending on who is doing the welding.

Stupid questions have always been my favorite and I resolved years ago to attempt to ask a stupid question everyday. After all the stupid questions are asked and you get answers to them you are left with only wisdom, is it worth the embarrassment?


Posted By: SHEANIMA Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/21/04 05:19 AM
jeffdengr, I'll agree that this is true to a certain extent, with certain things, but still, but it can't be applied to everything.

If you indeed accept the assumption that "ALL absolute truth can ONLY be perceived as relative", then you are without realizing it, rendering this assumption, itself, as an absolute.

The assumption that ALL truths can ONLY be perceived as relative, actually cancels itself out by its the very nature of its absoluteness.

If that assumption were accurate, it would never have been perceived by you, because of its absoluteness.

By stating that ALL truth is relative, this very assumption therefore succeeds in canceling itself out, because it is now absolute, by the nature of its statement.

[This message has been edited by SHEANIMA (edited September 21, 2004).]

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/21/04 05:28 AM
The idea that the world was created and didn't grow or self-organize is a predominant one in our culture.

A kind of thinking that allows for seeing forms in the universe as composed of elements with self-organizing properties fits better for me.

I did not create my cells. Rather, I view myself as a phenomenon that emerges from the existence and activity of my cells. I could not tell you the first thing about creating a cell. I couldn't tell you any of the steps in how to do it. I could only ramble on about meosis or mitosis, cell walls, the nucleus, and other things I remember from my biology classes. But that's it.

How can I create my cells without knowing how to do it? I know how to create a 3D model in Maya 6.0. I know how to cook fettuchini alfredo. But to create a cell? Thats being done by automatic processes in my body.

Through visualization, intention, and other activities I can influence the development of my cells and varying bodily processes, but this does not mean that I created them. I do not need to have created a ball in order to influence its position. I merely have to kick it.

I am interested in your statements about the psychological, political, and other such changes that come about through thinking and acting in ways that conflict with your core beliefs. Is this true for you in terms of being congruent or incongruent, or do you think your core beliefs form a template for what is best for all to believe?

As to accepting that all truth is relative as an absolute truth, you are assuming that the only kind of thinking is absolute thinking. That one MUST accept that statement absolutely.

One could simply say, yes, I do apply it to the statement. All truth is relative except when it is not.

Now, that makes the statement sound ridiculous, but, honestly, it really fits with my experience.

It boils down to a statement that, more reasonably, goes, "It may very well be that most truth is relative ... except when it isn't. And life is a process in which you're constantly figuring what is what."

Your beliefs are essentially where you have decided to stop thinking. I say this knowing that thinking MUST stop somewhere. But that doesn't mean it can't start up again when you need it.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited September 21, 2004).]


If you're still following this thread.

As you can see there are many pausible answers but none will ever be conclusive.

Who was I before I was born... not physical
Who will I be when I'm gone... not physical

The only time I know is now the past is a memory and the future is a dream so the only time I can experience myself is in the now and even in the moment that it is written that now is already in the past.

Who was I before I was born? It doesn't matter.
Who will I be when I leave? It doesn't matter Because I am here and here is my now moment, it is really the only experience that I own. From this point I cannot change what was nor what will ultimately be. I can only change what is my thoughts in my here and now.

Was I a being before I was born? perhaps though I doubt it was of the limited consciousness that I experience in the physical. It is probably even a different type of consciousness. Science has shown that all things are energy energy cannot cease to exsist although it does change form.

Who am I?

Right now I am... looking forward to the now momment where I'm enjoying my late lunch

Enjoy Life

Posted By: SHEANIMA Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/21/04 06:37 AM
babayada, you cannot create your cells, because you are not the creator, only the re-creator.

Take the great pyramids, for instance. I believe their form signifies life. Symbolically, the Creator, which is the source of our spirit nature both male and female, yet infinite in number, is at the top... the all-seeing eye of all creation. "He" then starts the process, and it perpetuates itself.

Are there different views on life? Of course! And I know that this one has been around probably since the dawn of time. But I can see it, and it makes sense, so I don't mind accepting what it basically gives, and what it offers my potential, from a supernatural standpoint. At the same time, I understand that there is so much more that I don't know, but I'm not going to get all twisted out of shape about it. I have my faith, which in many ways is cloaked in antiquity, but I locate what is timeless and logical (to me), and go from there. With a selection of workable truths within the framed wisdom of Christianity, I can have it all, and give it all, and get back even more. It's the foundation of my freedom and the meridian of my happiness.

This is what counts the most... freedom and happiness.

Did you not read the first sentence of my previous post? In reply to jeffdengr's comment, I said, "...I'll agree that this is true to a certain extent, with certain things, but still, but it can't be applied to everything." So you see, babayada, I do not believe that all truth can be seen as only absolute, or only relative. It was by the wording of his statement which made that statement an absolute one, because he used the words NEVER and ONLY. Those two words are absolutes, and therefore re-qualify his statement as an absolute one, even though the intention of the statement ran counter to it.

In answer to your question, I would have to get into a political discussion, which I would rather not start right now, because I wouldn't have the time to finish it. I am absolutely (oops! there's that word, again) fervent in my political views, so much so that I have stopped discussing them in the Internet forums, because I literally go all the way with it, while my own life takes a backseat to the keyboard. I know myself, so within the past month, I have choosen to be true to myself by exercising restraint, exlusively with that topic. Politics lights my fire and stirs my strength, but so much so that it can also become my weakness. I do apologize. Maybe later...?

And no, I do not expect for everyone to mimic my core beliefs, because this would be an unrealistic expectation. Although there's a part of me that would like it to be so, the sensible part knows that this would be unfair to the rest of those who would rather follow the beat of a different drum, even if that drum leads them to uncertainty and pain. After all, I wouldn't want someone dictating to me how to live my life. I want to make that choice for myself. Still, I keep myself open to suggestions, because all of us, if we are truly living, do change and grow, as we mature and evolve.

[This message has been edited by SHEANIMA (edited September 21, 2004).]

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/23/04 03:08 AM

Posted By: livingsuccess Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/29/04 02:02 AM
Interesting topic and discussion.

I would propose that this original question could be answered by focusing on one very relavant question:

Who Am I? (both now and then, in fact at any time)

The true answer to this question is not relative and within it are the keys to all success, knowledge, power, love, etc.

[This message has been edited by livingsuccess (edited September 29, 2004).]

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/29/04 04:30 AM
And by what means are we to know and measure this supposed truth? And against what?

As far as I know right now, who I am is something I am continually learning about and will probably forever remain a mystery, because I can ultimately only know myself from one perspective, from within. And there is so much to know and in so many situations. I think the answer to this question is very relative.

I mean, just ask several people about one person. You'll get several different description. Who is that person REALLY? I guess that depends on what you mean by REALLY.

Who is a person? Are they their memories? Their personality? What they do? Their consciousness? All these phenomena change over time and in varying circumstances. Just because the mind can and prefers to generalize ... this does not mean the generalizations are valid. There are many that propose that the notion of "self" is merely a convenient, functional illusion generated by language ... that is, the way our language makes us tend to generalize about experience. Those people might be right. I just don't know.

Posted By: livingsuccess Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/29/04 04:46 PM
babayada asked: And by what means are we to know and measure this supposed truth? And against what?

It may seem like a paradox, but it would be through Self-Inquiry. This process will not be "against" anything, you would have to let go of all concepts of antagonism.

babayada further said: who I am is something I am continually learning about and will probably forever remain a mystery...I think the answer to this question is very relative.

This is true, from the various relative perspectives. None-the-less, behind all of those perspectives, unifying them all, is one common absolute position.

We don't have to find it. Some never look. Some look forever and never find it. If you are after this, you must let go of your searching - it is a fish too big to swallow. You simply have to become the fish.

Best wishes.

[This message has been edited by livingsuccess (edited September 29, 2004).]

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 09/30/04 06:49 AM
The metaphor isn't the only thing fishy about what you're saying.

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/05/04 03:42 PM
My grandfater always said "Fish, is the smell of money". In the Unlimited Futures Book refered to by Bobbi Stevens, life is about choosing what you want and make it happen.

This original question for me introduces uncertainty into ones thinking and very unworkable. Maybe putting it on the back burner until I have matured enough to cook it properly is the right thing.

When I was a young Lad I asked myself "What is God" and about 45 years later I started getting an answer that made sense to me. I'm not doing that here because I really don't want to know, there are to many other things I am pursuing.

Consciously choosing what you want in life is better than blindly accepting what life gives you. Some things you cannot control or know about and that is OK, you simply can't know that or do that. I always wanted to fly like superman but haven't found the superman suit that worked for me yet.

Good Fishing.


Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/06/04 05:51 AM

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 06, 2004).]

Posted By: bhenry Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/08/04 06:46 PM

Why did you delete your message?

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/11/04 07:06 PM
I feel I am beating a dead horse. I believe what I believe, and others believe what they believe, and that is the long and short of it.

The basis for a lot of this material has its origin in the discovery that what we are convinced is truth is actually simply the result of our perceptions.

What we consider limitations are often just perceived limitations, and instead of giving up on those areas, we should simply experiment and lift the limitations by exploring possibilities ... and that begins by having a sense of possibility.

I am all fine and dandy with that. But the methods and philosophies involved with the abundance for life course and the people who have enthusiasm for it appear to me to move closer and closer to religion and ritualized responses. Frankly, that scares and irks the hell out of me.

It's all about perception. When you start talking about truths and deeper truths, well, you're moving away from what provided the magic of NLP in the first place.

You know ... if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

It seems to me that people find something really magical, and then they end up missing the point and doing the same old crap everyone else did. You have something great and ultimately end up with a dead system that doesn't work and creates the kinds of limitations it was supposed to create alternatives for in the first place.

What is happening here is that a sort of "privileged view" is being proposed. It's labeled as truth. This is the same old nonsense. Don't give me truth, give me possibility. Don't try and tell me the way things are, give me a new possible way of looking at things that is just as good as many other ways. Don't lock me into not having choice by trying to have me believe in a so-called "truth."

Paul Scheele talks about freeing people from trances. But, really, what he is doing is creating a new trance for people that he probably thinks is better. By definition, it's *not* better. Just different. Labeling something "truth" however, locks it into a privileged status. It also locks people into stupidity.

There are alternative views that work just as well. Just because something works does not mean it or the offered explanation for it is "true," it means its a viable approach to a given set of problems or goals. Our explanations for how things work are not true just because they make sense. It simply means that the explanation fits some well-formedness criteria. That's it. Our explanations for things are not necessarily the magic in them that makes them work. The work with modeling in NLP at the beginning made this abundantly clear. How soon we forget.

When you asked people to explain how they did what they did, they'd give you their beliefs, which usually was a bunch of crap that had nothing at all to do with what they did consciously and unconsciously to produce results. This is why a system of modeling was necessary. How do you model? Perceptual shifts. Not into truth, but into an experience that, hopefully, will more and more closely resemble the activity that goes on within the subject being modeled. Observation. Actually using your senses to get good data ... not free associating in a trance and thinking you're receiving direct wisdom and truth from God or whoever. Separation of interpretation from sensory specific data. Realizing when you are "explaining" something or adding useless info vs. being sparse and accurate. This is the difference between "the subject is breathing in for a count of 4 seconds, out for a count of 4 seconds and has a lack of muscle tone in the face and upper body" and "the subject is in a calm, spiritually transcendent state."

What I see here is a movement away from all the good practices and skepticism that are simply prudent and into sloppy and fluffy thinking. I see a sort of religion developing, and it is both irritating and sad.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 11, 2004).]

Posted By: InquiringMind Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/11/04 10:57 PM

We seem to have come around in one complete circle, reminding me of my question posted a few months ago:

Maybe it is a matter of semantics, in that we are talking about a realm of being and seeing which cannot be translated into words and described. Maybe the word "truth" is the closest we can come to in describing that state which Paul is trying to describe, which has so many totally different meanings to different people. Maybe, to using the word,"truth" is only a starting point, which will at least start people on the journey of discovery.

I wish I knew what the sages mean when they describe truth as "a state of knowing".

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/13/04 01:03 AM
Which reminds me of cartoon I once saw.

Two cave men were standing by a marijuana plant, smoking a joint.

They both have half-closed, blood-shot eyes. The cave man holding the joint looks at the other one and says, "You know, I don't know what this stuff is, but it's pretty amazing. It makes me feel like every thought that I am thinking is profound."

States of being are fine and dandy, but lets not take simply being content and turn it into the mother of all states, in which everything is fulfilled and yada yada yada.

Feeling hungry is just as important as feeling full, and each have their place.

Is supergeneralization the answer to all problems? Does it produce a state of nirvana? I doubt it.

And I feel sort of awkward having to point this out, but, while much of what Paul is and does impresses a great deal, there are important differences between him and, say, Rumi or Lao Tze.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 12, 2004).]

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/15/04 03:53 AM
Not to disagree with your points but to point out a big thing to me is that we all have our own minds. In order to find Happiness we have to be willing to give up beliefs, values, perceptions that don't serve us. In order to do that you first have to know what they are for you, most people don't know what they believe in, what values system they use, or how they filter their perceptions. You only have control over you're own self and your internal make up, or to say that you can get control over how you respond to the outer world if you have built your inner world the way you want. You can build your own belief system and find evidence of it being true everywhere. You can only get rid of it if you bring it to consciousness and make changes so it serves you.

You can't honestly be concerned about anyone else other than yourself first. You have to be happy before you can truely make others happy. You have control over yourself not others. When you are working right it spreads to others.

I believe that you have to focus on what you want in this life to get it, worrying about others going off the path is a waste of time, you have to trust that they will figure it out or maybe they really wanted to end up in the ditch. In my complete disbelief I have seen many people who didn;t want any help and shooting themself in the foot was the purpose of life.

I found much happiness knowing I did not share their path.

Paul may not be a Great Sage but I would say he is a great friend to any one who is on this path of seeking abundance. Friends in life who help you are a great asset. By treating them with respect you also treat yourself with respect, by treating them with disrespect you belittle the lessons you learned and cheapen yourself.

He gives you a great tittle "Abundance for Life" . Try focusing your mind on that, meditate on it, make it a burning desire and a passion to choose to have it. I think only a good friend would give you that idea. What you make of it is your choice, the power comes from you.

And maybe, for fun, think about this question "Who were you before you were dead?"


Posted By: Eric_G Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/15/04 02:12 PM
Around one and half year ago I was using the Borrowed Genius session from the Genius Code PLC for improving my relationships with people and decided to use Paul Scheele as genius from whom to borrow

Here is short description of this particular streaming session.

I entered into Zen garden and meat Sean Connery there almost at the gate. I was first a bit disappointed, because I had used him as role model during the Instantaneous Personal Magnetism Paraliminal already.

This was with excellent results, but I was hoping to meet Paul Scheele (This was before I had actually meat him). Sean noticed this right away and told me not to worry, he is here as friend, he will guide and introduce the garden.

First then I changed same kind of kimono that Sean was using and then we started walking and also taking care of the garden. He told me the history of the place and we had good time. After this we arrived to temple that was like dragons head. Sean told me that from here I need to proceed alone.

I went into the dragons head and it was full of light, it was so bright that I didn't see anything just white. I continued walking forward and then saw figure of meditating man. He was back wards, but I knew that he was Paul Scheele. He was also wearing clothes that where pure white. I walked forward and after a while the session encouraged me to jump into Paul and experience the world through his "eyes".

I felt so good, it was amazing and suddenly I noticed that I was not alone in the room. It was actually full of people. They where all my friends and there was very special bond between me and them, we where all one and I was one with everything.

I stayed there for a while, and then expressed my grattitude to Paul for borrowing his genius. Then I walked back to the garden and out side from the gate.

First I was kind of shocked of this Image Stream, because I didn't want to think anyone as Guru, someone that I would worship. This was fear in side of me.

Then about one year later my life was very magical and through series of events I became Buddhist. For the fist time I started studying about the topic and learned for example that if you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha.

It was so big relief for me now everything in the Image Stream made sense. But it took one year to actually take the action that the stream has encouraged. I had just been afraid of the guru thing, because I didnt know enough.

Now when I meditate in front of Buddha statue, its me who is there. I feel 100% ones with the statue, also if I bow in front of the statue; I bow for my self I kind of belief that what is me in the statue is what I was before my birth and will be after I die. And it's really grate to have this connection while living. After all I believe that when I'm dead I will not have such luxury as feelings or emotions.

I was just recently listening seminar by James Ray from CD, and he emphasised that we are all spiritual beings who have manifested physical body. He said that we should appreciate the body and this physical form, rather than trying to get away from it. There is reason for us to have this form, this is the greatest this that we have. I agree this 100%!

But in order to understand this, for me it required to understand my "truth"...

Well, now it's written down YES, YES, YES!


PS: I believe that all the religions are about the same thing, just form different perceptions. I just happen to experience this from this perspective, so don't believe a word I say, but experience your self!

PSS: I was keeping this inside for a very long time, it feels good to let it out. What a silly fear...

[This message has been edited by Eric_G (edited October 15, 2004).]

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/16/04 05:55 AM
Hehehe. Yep.

You were Paul Scheele. It was your neurology that created that experience of him in the first place. If you began worshipping him from that experience, you would really only be worshipping yourself.

Posted By: Prana Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/17/04 05:19 AM
we are like a schizophrenic person
they within the body multiple personalities
us within the universe multiple personalities

wonder why we are always fighting?
wonder why to work things out brings peace

it can be healed

but alway in two of my pasts lives i was the egyptian God Anubis though not completely as they knew him to be and once Socrates
the only two that are famous at least
and of just over three hundred that have been human
u would not believe some of the forms i have been

buddhist rebirth theory is much more refined than that of hindu

the dalai lame was once asked "what is it exactly that is reborn?"
he replied "mostly your bad habits"

hahaha i love that

Posted By: Prana Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/16/04 08:33 PM
jeffdengr - holding onto one thing too much u get grasping which can bring pain cause all conditioned things change
not holding onto it cause u do not like it brings pain
ignorance brings pain
perhaps not instantly but it will come

it is true that now is the only moment

Mark-11 - comfort is not nice?
it comes and goes thats the only thing
once again do not hold on onto
we are reborn not in after life
it is life again
it goes like this
it can be said that birth and death are different aspects of the same thing
when u are deep in duality u see death opposed to life
when u see it for what it is it is scary or difficult to look forward to
most see it as freedom
only when enlightened

jeffdengr - meditation is not just sitting but living - it removes ignorance
use mindfullness to see what things are like right now

genorosity opposes greediness
morality opposes lack of it
Renunciation - Grasping
Wisdom - delusion
effort - sloth
Patience - impatience
Truthfulness - deceit
Resolution - undetermined
Loving-kindness - indifference
Equanimity - paranoia & stress etc

focus brings light to them
memories are all within
why do they call computer memory memory?
comps are not as effecient but u get the point

recall is our problem
also perception
not reception

my brain runs at more than half a yottabyte
a second but there is much to go and some of the other senses slow some of it down

yottabyte = 1,208,925,819,614,629,174,706,176 bytes/sec

think of how well computers do things
we do it all the time and only never reboot till we die
ive seen no limits

InquiringMind - they are both of no effect in the present still maybe worth thinking about at some point
nothing is not worth considering

children are just innocent

something a Buddhist nun said once
she was asking a Catholic priest if she should go back to retreat or create a nunery

he said "life is a bit of wood - if u go back to retreat u will be rubbing urself with velvet all the time, the nunery will be sandpaper"

children havent had much experience so the ability to cope with it hasnt been shown yet either

the supreme being yes we all exist there and move through it
like a circle

NeoZon - i remember much of pasts lives when i meditate on it but sometimes i have reoccuring thoughts of things and people

i have a friends who i have been with 8 times in the last 20 or so reincarnations
few have been human but we have a magnetism

i know him better than i know myself
same with him

jeffdengr family is only really blood links im not sure that u move from one to the other forms within ur family line
tradition and customs take care of the things u may have seen

what we see as ourselves has 5 parts

they are all interpendant that is why we see them as one or two
body and mind
aspects of each other

babayada - good on ya for the joy of it all

past and future shape
they are dependant to on now as now is dependant on past and future
we learn from mistakes and learn not to make them again
now we do the learning

Eric_G - ur almost on the right track

practice the wrong thing though u get bad results

right view and intention are wisdom
rightspeech, action & livelihood are ethics
right effort mindfulness and concentration are mental

practice them and gain experience
with experience of that u gain enlightenment
no more rebirth

jeffdengr - funny why people are so scared of death when it is so peacefull
no confusion simply pain
i look at it and laugh
i truely laugh in the face of death

ShaneXEdge - too true
life is a thread we are hanging by

"reaching out to embrace whatever may come" - from a tool song called lateralus

Eric_G - anyone who lines up theory with Buddha has done some good work i say

Edmilio - ever done reiki or tai chi or anything like that?
did u know butterflies can beating wings in succession create a thunderstorm across the world?
beauty i think

this is all illusion
just try to make sense of it cause i will not go away like a desert mirage when u jump in for a swim

peace love & joy straight back to ya

Frodo02 - i think near death is just life
not death
people say something just missed them
not just it did
same as if it never came close right?
language is silly at times especially english

the unconditional part of us the super conciousness
the undying the unborn yes
that is not i but us
to use conventional terms

babayada - yes the body rots but it still remains
the cirle of life is made of death as much as it is of death
conditioned reality contradicts itself
energy truely is indestructible but perhaps only in the conditioned states of form and non-form

something ill have to meditate on
(well sitting as opposed to living)
its a little deeper to wrap around

SHEANIMA - human being goes not have a higher power
God is not a reality in itself
God claims to be dependant from all
but needed to create us why?
because he is love?
is he is love then why do we have it?
because he is everywhere?
why do we have to ascend to heaven?
old school flat earth theory from antiquity
its old and unfounded

they are nice people thats all

Mark-11 - the being never changes just who what, where, why and when i believe

to be or not to be
ask urself that question

SHEANIMA - claiming to be a freethinker and being christian is a little difficult
they walk on a thin line as bill hicks says

to be free is to not be trapped in anything
jesus or hell is not my idea of free

deaf and dumb and blind and born to follow - another awesome Tool quote from the song Opiate
look at the lyrics they are quite enlightening to the world of christianity

trust without judgement and questioning is not freedom

what is 2?
what is 4?
think about more than what u know

babayada - orwell altogether still play on my mind everyday
he is a genius!!!

things are not as they seem yes

SHEANIMA - absolute yes but nothing is constant

unless u believe in God and soul

tell me any emotion continues all the time and ill laugh
cept unconditional love
unconditioned can be constand and permanent

mundane love turns to hate very quickly

A house cannot initiate the construction of itself. - SHEANIMA
thats right
u just confirmed that things are dependant of each other to exist right?
remove man does God exist?
did he ever?
simple is sometimes best

and children made u realise that
haha amazing
great work

who created the creator?
even god said everything has a first cause

the will to be was it
the will =to not be does not counter it but creat another conditioned state the realm of gods
unlike the bible god,allah and yahweh or shekinah the two sides of the jewish Godhead
which has been supressed by the churches or time
the holy spirit is female
why else is god androgynous?
jesus male + shekina female = god both

the word heremaphrodite
hermes + aphroditie = hermaphrodite
zwitter zwitter haha
zwei in deutsch is two

u see humans relise all this without relising
why u think there is all the internal and preojected external strife
the external from people looking outwards
God is outwards

hope this answers some questions of a few inquiring minds

look deeper into all the main religions and especially egyptian mythology
the ankh

why the hell do christians say amen after prayer?
hello!!!!! amen the sun god of egyptian myth

i said that to a christian of 67 years she went "those egyptians got it wrong"
u just gotta laugh sometimes

ur core beliefs
haha resistance to change and being wrong
the ultimate prison cell
i feel sorrow for u
buddhism is the most complete religion of religions
u are NOT free thinking
must i repeast it?
anyone find this as amusing as i do? lmao

jeffdengr - try buddhadhamma (buddhism)
its an awesome truth
and pure like none other
and the path to enlightenment
ith no stories that seem to be lies and no claim that we have freewill while being in accordance to a predestines plan

truth is often relative
why we get the feeling of self place and time

babayada - check out sacred geometry
the whole unverse conforms to one plan yes but it is not one that is of any god
the only bad is of our own creation
somethings are not completely in our control
but they can be coersed (spelling?)

great u believe that religion and such can change other beliefs
i know many that do not

right we can choose to think and not
we can make it usefull while we have it
but to need it is the pain creator

Alex K. Viefhaus - ur right but u still look forward to lunch hehe
saying is one thing apart from doing if they are different

i know im not perfect either
but just a thought

and it can matter who u where
mozart would have never made such wonderfull music if he had never looked into it and the superconciousness

change form yes
but the core is mostly the same
to be completely new is to say it was all destroyed and recreated

SHEANIMA - just something for u think about
the unchanging God u believe in right why did he create and them not create?
that is a change
there are thousands of them in the bible
the ever changing God

omnipresent but not possibly in this manifestation - why he needs the holy spirit

perfect means completely made

he is not complete we can see he needed us
and he is supposedly not made

which is it lol?
freedom and happiness. indeed

politics can be great
but christians have a bad record of it
Hitler and Bush are two good examples lmao

babayada - measure with ur experiences
do not allow something to be trusted or believed without trying it out

deep reflection is needed

livingsuccess - one would need to let go of all conceptualising

we do need to find something
the ending of the cycle

but do not worry about it too much
just walk in the right direction
and take one step after another
one breath after another

jeffdengr life is not what u want to do
it does not exist
that is the worldly sickness
we exist now
why not being now!?!?!

flight is possible for humans
just takes a long time to focus the energy and develop the skill to do it

may seem crazy yes
but God now that isnt? hahaha

truth sometimes is weirder than fiction

babayada - why would u kill Buddha?
thats rather unacceptable that u want to kill
but Buddha?
Budhism is not a religion it is an education

Paul schelle is pretty good
he gets a lot right
some wrong but u do not have the mind to decide on each in order to say yes or now

u simply say yes

InquiringMind - yes but maybe just change
through defeat and lack or reason

though that can change also

the cesret is the mindpoint
the middle path

not optimism or pessimism
but halfway
that way u do not get dissapointed or swell in unhappiness

u get me?

buddhism leads to nibbana i know that much

jeffdengr - yes we must let go

once u learn to love urself unconditionaly u move it to all because u learn how things are interdependant
you are me i am u
we are one

haha i like ur imagery
i met buddhas in a room with no walls
they had 2 boxes each and opened them around me to take a piece of me into each
buddha gave me love and understanding which flowed in through my third eye and the other buddha opened the other box and new pieces of colours blue red yellow white and orange came to make me whole again

it was very strange as i remembered it and dreamed it later a few times
i not longer have nightmares

we swapped clother
i was originally in a roman toga and him in his ascetic garb

i think im going to become a monk for some reason

i feel good always through constain meditations and pure thoughts (i would like to believe)
im not that far through the tapes yet

no need to kill Buddha
just be with the buddha and thank him for giving his best

would u expect anymore or less?

a different perception can change a lot

thanx to all reading this rant
i hope u come up with something to counter anything wrong and hope read it through to see
Much love Prana

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/17/04 12:53 AM
On killing the Buddha, the emphasis on killing is probably using drama to nail in a point (as with Christianity). There is another example of it where the Buddha gets killed.

There was once a Zen Master who lived, as they often do, near the top of a mountain. People would travel from miles and miles around, seeking him out for the answers to their questions.

Whenever someone would ask him a question, such as, "What is the true nature of the Buddha?" he would look at them with a piercing glance and point his index finger at them. There was something about the presentation or the spirit of the master doing it, because many upon receiving this answer would become enlightened.

One day the Zen Master was sick, and there was a long line of people waiting for him. The Zen Master's son saw this, and he was an impish sort. His son saw what his father did in answer to everyone's questions and figured, hell, that isn't so hard. None of the questioners had ever seen the Master before, so the son just dressed up in his father's clothing, went and sat on his chair like his father, and commenced the finger pointing.

Lo and behold, people started becoming enlightened from the son's shennanigans. The sick father heard some commotion from his bed and looked to find an imposter on his chair imitating him! Worse, he realized the perpetrator was none other than his son. "Well," thought the Zen Master, "time to fix his little red wagon and teach him a lesson."

The Zen Master dressed up as a beggar, smearing dirt and screwing up his face so his son wouldn't recognize him. He took a knife from the kitchen and held it behind him, so his son wouldn't see what was coming.

The old man got in line, and when it came him turn he said, "Great Master, could you please tell me, who is the Buddha?"

When the son looked piercingly at the father and pointed with his finger at his father, the Zen Master grabbed the finger with one hand and with the other cut the finger completely off.

It was at this very moment the the Zen Master's son was enlightened.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 16, 2004).]

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/17/04 01:40 AM

I do not think and did not mean to imply that Paul Scheele presents himself as an enlightened sage. Despite the fact that he does not, despite the fact that he takes pains to indicate something to the contrary (you'll notice how he willingly discusses his own flaws and trials), people are more than willing to put him up on that pedestal. This is not good for anyone involved. That's my point of view.

Beliefs are not some things you get rid of.

People think and believe as they do because of the information they have available to them.

When I was a child and believed in Santa Claus, I did so because I had a limited amount of information available to me. My parents were actively engaged in a conspiracy to fool me. My dad left out cookies and milk for Santa and a bowl of water and carrots for Rudolf. At some point during the day, my dad took pains to get me to notice the empty glass of milk and a left-over half-eaten cookie. "Look at the nibble-marks on the carrot," my dad said, "have you ever seen the marks reindeer teeth make?"

I felt funny about all that when that happened, because my dad's performance was exaggerated and he was just a little bit too eager for me to notice all that. He also made a big deal about leaving those items out for Santa. That was the clue for me that something was amiss. If he had simply made no big deal about it, and maybe my mom made a bitter off-hand remark about Santa not cleaning up after himself, they might have had me for longer, but I figured it out.

I learned that my dad drank the milk and ate the cookies. He nibbled on the carrots and threw out the water. Mom and Dad bought the gifts each Christmas. While I was being fooled, I had a nagging feeling about it all. That nagging feeling led to inquiry and active disbelief.

Was my belief in Santa Claus removed? You could think of it that way, but you would be thinking like a simpleton if you did. Beliefs are conclusions we draw from experience. When the frame of the experience changes, the conclusions change. Beliefs aren't removed. The memory of the old way of perceiving is still there. With new information, however, you just can't believe what you used to. Nothing is removed, rather something is added.

When you see a magician's trick you might be totally fooled if you're a kid. Other kids did not like the fact that I was the one who looked for the trick and made it obvious by blurting it out once I found out how the magician did it. I was surprised when I found that many people would rather be fooled than to figure out or explore the truth.

What happens to the belief in the magic when you find out how the gag is enacted--that the dove flying out from the frying pan was hidden in a section under the lid that the magician tried to keep from your view? That the flourishing gesture with one hand was supposed to keep your awareness away from what the other one did?

Well, like the milk into the newspaper, it doesn't disappear. It exists within a context of new information, new understanding, and fits differently because of it. The notion is there, it just bears a different relation to the truth. Once you see that the milk went down a tube and into the magician's sleeve, it's apparent where it is, how everything all fits together.

I get a lot of nagging feelings about some of the more "magical" stuff in these courses. It sure feels good to believe some things. Doesn't it? Kids love to believe in Santa Claus. Maybe some people need to believe they are all powerful gods in order to muster up the courage to act? Maybe they need some opiates to get themselves going? Well, ok. But I'd like to think we're adults. I find it better to simply make the best with what you got. simply As human beings, simply using material resources so much is possible. So much. You don't really need mental tricks and sleight of mouth using outrageously questionable notions and spirituality. If that's your thing, fine. But it really isn't necessary. Santa Claus doesn't deliver your gifts on Christmas, at is isn't a magical super-power that brings you the things you want in life. It's your nervous system noticing information in the world and your brain processing it. It's your intelligence to figure out how to get what you want, your resourcefulness, and your actions that are responsible.

Maybe things seem to "happen" magically because you notice them? Maybe you sensitized yourself because you became clear on what you want and expected it to happen? Maybe expectations are powerful? Not magically powerful, just practically. You see things because your expectation to see them puts you into a heightened state of responsiveness to a certain category of stimuli. No need for notions about oneness with the universe and sending out thought forms into the ether and all that.

It's possible that this is what is occurring, but in my view it is very unlikely.

We don't manifest a la the shoemaker and his elves. We manifest from paying attention, having the courage to try and act, and being persistent. No added mysticism necessary.

Is that an impoverished view? Well, the fat has been cut off, but the meat remains.

In terms of fooling yourself, I think the Subgeniuses have a good philosophy. Go ahead and pull the wool over your own eyes if you want ... just know what you're doing and remember that you've done it.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 16, 2004).]

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/17/04 04:13 AM

Magic, I hear from my good friend Bill Harris that there is no magic, I hear it from many people. Even my kids tell me there is no such thing as magic.

There is that little extra something in some pockets of life that I call magic. When the Japanese Sword Master draws his sword and makes a cut so fine. His Mind and body are one. It is completely beautiful it is completely perfect.

When the Dragster is in the pits and after the Master Mechanic starts it up, you can hear that it is already the winner of the next race. It doesn't even need to race but it does and wins anyway.

When the Mariner sails into harms way to rescue someone and does his task without messing his hair or putting down the cup of coffee. Yet danger is all around his vessel.

These things might really fall under the catagory of Faith. They knew without a doubt that it would happen that way. This is what they were looking for, what they expected
and it happened. To me as the casual observer it was something I admired and called "Magic" because it was beyond me.

The power of faith is alot like Electricity.
You know it is there but it is beyond most peoples understanding. The lights are on, the toilets flush so we must have electricity.

The planet rotates around the sun, the solar system goes around something else, so we must have a Universe. Looks alot like a big electrical generator to me.

Your desciption of beliefs, to me seem more like perceptions, I view a belief as something I operate on. I believe that you can change beliefs. If you find that one does not serve you as well as something else might, I think you can throw it in the Mental Garbage can and have it hauled off.

A belief doesn't have to be true either to operate off of it. I mean look at all the people who believe low carbs diets are good for you when secretly everyone, who is in the know, eats plenty of pizza and beer to bulk up for body building contests.

The information doesn't really go away but how you operate off of your belief system can.

Honestly my point to you was just being Happy with whatever comes along. The only reason for being that way is that it just makes life easier.

When Buddha shows up, so what, "do you know any good jokes?" If he doesn't then kill him.
Not getting much happinees there, not making my life easier either.

I have never met Paul and honestly I don't expect to. Although through mail and internet these Master Teachers have come to me. I Believe (that word again) that anyone who helps me on my path with education, guidance or just a pat on the back that is applicable to my life is my friend because they have added to the quality of my life.

My job is very technical and for over thirty years I have had to know how to fix almost anything known to man or beast. Read reams of technical data and explain it to a 3 year old in 2 minutes or less and do it with a smile. I enjoy it, it's challenging and the idea of Self Mastery is a never ending path that gets wider and wider.

I'm not trying to impress the 3 year old with what I just boiled down into that little dissertation, I'm going for my personal best. OK so can I do this and be happy all the way through it? Can I release all tension and have this big demand on me at the same time, "How can I?" are some of the things that run through my head as I view this as more training. Doing it this way allows me to take on more and still feel good and makes me grow.

The results seem like magic.

Wish you the best.


Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/17/04 05:31 AM
Seems. Very important word there. That indicates to me that there is a part of you that knows, or suspects, that it really isn't magic.

There may very well be magic. Really. I don't say that sarcastically. There well may be something that functions so much like magic that we might as well call it that.

There have been unlikely situations I've witnessed. Horribly bad, incredibly good. Things that make you say, "Holy crap!" But is it magic?

Trust in God and tie up your camels, they say. When a person goes out into danger and rescues a person, that is amazing. It's wonderful. And yet there are times when people die alone and afraid. There are times when people go into immense danger, drunk and unprepared, and miraculously nothing bad happens to them. Then there are people who do everything they can and meet with tragedy.

It all figures into a big picture, as far as I am concerned. So, when someone says, "Magical," many times I think, "Hardly." Of course, there are times when the way I feel around a person is magical. Beauty can arouse feelings of magic in me, certainly. But that is just a romantic way of speaking. There was one woman I went out with who was absolutely stunning. One could say that she held a spell over me, and to an extent, she did. But, of course, we all know about the little chemicals and physical processes involved in that. It doesn't make the experience feel any less grand and mythic. It's nice to be able to say, "wait a minute, my brain is being pickled in hormones!" when you need to. It helps sober one up.

I understand your point about appreciating those who help you along the way. It's a good thing. You are more gracious about it in this context than I, and I think that is a good trait of yours.

Personally, however, I cannot not disagree. I cannot, will not stay silent on certain issues. I feel, in my own system of morality, that it would be wrong to do so. They should be exposed in an open forum and given air. If people think they stink, then that's their right. It probably all boils down to taste, anyway.

Paul is selling a bill of goods that I just can't buy wholesale. And I actually think there is something wrong with it. He has a right to his point of view. He has a right to say it. He has the right to sell it. Luckily, I have a right to give my opinions. Kudos to him for having these forums up and allowing me to say what I want to say here.

Regarding beliefs and perceptions, beliefs pretty much are perceptions. What else could they be? Your beliefs are perceptions you have had that influence perceptions you are making.

You can operate on perceptions. There's a bit of ambiguity with the term operate. You can function with your perceptions. You can also manipulate your perceptions. We're in sticky territory here, because I think we would both need to define in detail what we mean when we say belief and perception so we can be sure we're talking about the same things.

In any case, I suppose, symbolically, you can throw a belief in the garbage, but I think that this way of interacting with beliefs does not respect the ways beliefs are formed and what not. My feeling on that is kinda how I feel about a lot of Tony Robbins stuff. He gives people these half-baked explanations of things, and they go off willy nilly trying to muck with people's brains with no real understanding of what they're doing or conception of ecology. Meh.

Anyway, your persistent good will is winning over my curmudgeonly irascibility. I wish you the best, too.

Posted By: Prana Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/18/04 05:08 AM
there is always more to things than we know
like a ocean the mind has great waves
we try to do many things to it
think of the effect that has on water

do u people understand me when i say things?
im a lightweight but do u undestand?
ive got terrible grammar and spelling i know
im doing my best
just no comments on what i had to say thats all i was wondering if it was read or if it was too long
feedback is nice

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/17/04 06:44 PM

In a mechanical sense I think of perceptions as feedback to a direction I am going. Of course sitting still in quietness of mind doesn't give you much fresh perceptions but it does unload alot of garbage.

Alot of times my daughters ask me questions why I am doing something. A good one was on Feng Shui, I probably bought every book on Feng Shui and played with all these different systems and came up with something that worked for me. My youngest daughter asked why I did that. I answered her "For Good Luck" which she looked at me with this most incredulous look. No way, she said. But I notice that she always sits in my chair, I notice that the whole family sits in that area of the house and when we have company they all gravitate to that spot.

It's just an energy thing like electricity that you can't hold in your hand. I say it's magic because it is easier to explain to someone with a short attention span. I know I spent alot of hours reading, meditating, asking Masters for guidance, feeling how it felt, etc. It was like planting a garden except I was looking for a space that created that Dragon Breathe or cosmic breathe that is an enviroment that gives health, long life, wealth success prosperity,
happy family, etc.

The big secret to all of it was that it gives you all of these things so that you find Happiness, the next step is to Enjoy your Happiness. Enjoy a fantastic love life, etc.

If you break it down it's like making a magnetic field using the right ingredients.
But the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Maybe that is the magic part, at least for me.

As far as information, I learned it that a Sensei can only teach what he knows. You cannot try and teach something you don't know or you will look like an idiot, and that has even deeper implications.

If you have a problem with some of the information, maybe Paul has a way of looking at it that makes it work right, otherwise, why would he teach it?

For me Perceptions are external information coming in. My Beliefs are like Operating policy and I act this way or that based on what I receive through my perception. My Values are broad and general that keep me in the right sectors of life, sometimes I have to define them more and more. My Goals are targets that I go after to enhance my Value system which is pretty much my life.

When you are more than the sum of your parts then that is the magic of life. It is the Dragon Breathe. It is being in harmony with your environment and having the whole Universe at your back to help you.

also I rather enjoy calling something magic when it is something that I don't want to take the time to figure out. I also use it to get my daughters to figure out if Dad is telling them another sailor story or not.

"Did you know the Great Pumpkin will be arriving soon?, Now he is really magic."
They have to go find out that the Great Pumpkin is from Charlie Brown and I will hear all these groans and laughs when they discover the truth. Now I have to go find one they don't know.


Yes I did read your long notes. Waves are throughout the Universe, we probably are a wave. Sound waves, brain waves, ocean waves, pulses, rythems, the quiet is only an opening for the next wave. The wave creates change that keeps us fresh, healthy and clean. I'm rather fond of those Waves from nice girls with a smile attacted.


Posted By: Prana Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/17/04 07:15 PM
lol great
i couldnt read it in any time fast
speedreading ive done so far has not brung me very far
i do not think i have done it properly with enough effort
i know i can and will but geting over the hurdles is my challenge
staying without doubt is another
it is hard
but that is life right?
im trying ever so hard but i find myself distracted by my amazement of life and everything in it
i just cannot settle on one thing
ive been meditating but i cannot seem to get past certain points with that now
i get back to other things
i guess it is hard having so much information at my fingertips
i need somewhere to be
without all of this so i have no choice to just pick up a book or start a conversation
i guess a few of u can do the speed/photo reading thing

i WILL get there
ill listen to the subliminals 10 times in a row before i get into doing the course again
im pretty alert and i do not need as much sleep as most people so i can do things for a long period of time but i come to few conclusions
ive got 140+ IQ though i do not really excell in any one area
and ive said my mathematics really brings me down
i have a thirst for life while i am here and i will not live another
this is the last
but i still have some time to go
i have seen my own death
in my sleep but fully aware of it so i wake up and go outside and lye down to look at the stars then it all fades
there is no more past that
people would think im crazy if i told them half the things i am telling here
though some still will here lol
thats totally fine with me

i think this manifestation is sound
created from the first thought that wanted form
im not sure how to explain it all yet but there is something in the brain that creates sound when you think
ill work it all out one day
matter changes with the sound
we can morph with enough mental ability

im just ridin the wave though i might just be one of the many
not all are on the same wave though
the length varies aswell

Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/18/04 04:03 AM

You are right about your thoughts but in my humble opinion you need to just relax and ride the wave as far as it will take you. Nothing lasts forever. But here and now can be forever.

I was taught also that the Universe began with a sound, it was the sound of Soooo.
The phrase "So What" was kind of a joke on creating the Universe. "So" the Universe was created and "What!" big surprise!

Enjoy being Happy it is a path with all the rewards you could ever dream of.


Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/18/04 06:59 AM
Toh-may-toh, toh-mah-toh. Poh-tay-toh, poh-tah-toh.

Lets call the whole thing off.

Posted By: Prana Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/18/04 04:30 PM
im enjoying it alright
i enjoy every moment like a child
even Jesus was right about some things
he was a good MAN

Posted By: benewme Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/18/04 08:00 PM
Prana, you MUST be be enjoying the discussion!

"even Jesus was right about some things
he was a good MAN"????

My goodness! Those sound like fighting words!! *grin*

I won't engage you in verbal battle, but I'll lend you my flak jacket if you need it for other responses.

Posted By: Prana Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/19/04 02:21 PM
hmm perhaps
but he was right about it either way if he existed wholly god or half man-half god or just wholly man
either way he was right yeah?
i enjoy discussion a lot
i like to talk to people see what they think and know
not a competeting but just to see others opinions
which are not always good but sometimes even shine through the bad
i guess i do the same
don't ask me which is which thats for you to decide on
i need no protection from words
i may have in the past but i no longer do
im good with difference
and i know there is change and if someone is just getting it very wrong and it is harmfull even i know it an change for worse or better
the heart knows where to follow
one of the greatest challenges of opoinions is that others believe yopu are simply trying to overcome them not just be there
like government they do not always agree but they are there either way
some just love being the opposition

benewme engage if you see the need
ive no fear
do you? lol i cannot see what for
challenge me if you can
i think u see it too far below you
not trying to egg you on now
the more things are kept in the dark the more they are doomed to stay there and the further from light they become

Going way off topic here. Remember this is about the Abundance for Life course. If you want to continue your discussion Prana I suggest you continue it in the beyond human forum where it belongs.

This thread is long enough without moving further off topic.

Paul's question was aimed at giving you something to look within yourself for as you do the Abundance for Life course. And personal insights were offered and they are all true given the personal experiences and knowledge obtained by the individuals.

Take only your own experience as your answer and as you continue to explore and ask that question again and again the answer will change. There will never be one answer, only personal experiences and those who consider the question when the do the Feeling Exercise are bound to notice some personally profound answers but like the feeling exercise once you put it into words you have changed it... don't try to analyse the experience while you were having it because that takes you out of it. Those moment were you see the answer are always followed by a return to the trance state. We never get fully out of our trances but we can experience transformation along the way.


Posted By: Prana Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/19/04 07:27 PM
sorry i get taken off one thing
i think all is connected and i kinda do that in my conversations
i take things from one place to another cause i see the relevance
just me i guess
i know that from meditation of the sitting kind if u do not carry it on past that time it stays a memory
people change once back in "real life"
takes a bit of will to keep it in check all of the time
i think ill start only asking questions around here

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/20/04 07:53 AM
What's the difference if you ask questions or make statements, so long as you're within the topic at hand?

You could just as easily ask off topic questions, like, "Do you think John Kerry wears boxers or briefs?"

You'd be hard pressed to show relevence of that question to this topic. It can be done, of course, but you get my point I'm sure.

Posted By: Frodo02 Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/20/04 08:08 AM
Thanks Alex,

I was wondering about this topic awhile ago.
It has now hardly anything to do with Abundance for Life.

I too would like to see it continued somewhere else.

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/21/04 06:26 AM
For a while, Frodo, the posts have been on topic. They have addressed many of the assumptions made in the Abudance for Life course and issues directly related to those assumptions.

Abundance for Life proposes a certain cosmology. Nearly all of the posts made here have been related to aspects of that cosmology.

Posted By: Prana Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/22/04 05:31 AM
i havent listen to it
no doubt mine are very different from it sorry bout that

Posted By: Mark-11 Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/21/04 11:06 PM
Agreed this thread is way of course but its better than my favourite soap!

I log in every night just to see Babayada will say next.

I hope the CENSOR doesn't cut it.


Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/22/04 02:34 AM
I always thought having a post with some life energy in it and grows organically was much better than sterile Q&A.

I'll remember this one next lifetime.

Posted By: babayada Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/22/04 05:01 AM
I am glad you guys feel the way I do about it.

I like lively conversation with a little bit of a spike to it.

There was this mexican food place where I used to live in New Orleans that had this really interesting salsa. It is one of the spicest things I've ever eaten. It had this interesting clean flavor and sensation to it just before it performed the more gruesome tortures practiced during the Spanish Inquisition on your tongue.

It hurt, but I couldn't stop eating the stuff. It was just too interesting.

Mark-11, I am glad you're entertained.

Posted By: Prana Re: Who were you before you were born? - 10/22/04 08:16 AM
i like that
sometimes it hurts but u keep going back for more
some would call it sadist
some would call it tough
some would call it interested

im the kind of person who doesn't change his way depending on mood
they do not control me as i do not control them
only influence them into redundancy
same with my thoughts

so i take conversation simply as that
some take it as an extention of their emotions (not saying anyone here does that that i know of yet)
we may see i like to dig deep at times
ima gemini aswell
i cannot do without conversation and relationship
i can but its just me

i enjoy all thigs good and bad
i just enjoy learning how to cope with things in a good way so i do not only act good when i let my good emotions allow it and my bad side to show just because im in a bad mood

people ask me how i am
i say "good as always"
but my mood varies
that is mood
something seen as one with the mind
the mind holds many things
consciousness uses the mind as the mind uses the body
mind also ego also uses emotions which uses the mind
thoughts are a function of the mind

talk about rant hahaha
i never seem to have a point
something unconscious perhaps?
being brought into the concious but remaining unconscious?

im writing a lot of thoughts and scheisse into a book and a lot comes out and some of seems to be so irrelevant but i know somehow it all is

least u get to know me like this haha
im enjoying this too
i hope we all can

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