Hi there

I have a question for everyone who wants to participate:

If you were to BE YOUR MESSAGE WITH GREAT INTEGRITY, in other words you had an ideal or value that you wanted to LIVE OUT, how would YOU go about it? If you had to WALK YOUR TALK, and TALK YOUR WALK, how would you do it?

Grant,

I feel there is some really deep meaning in yoru challenge. No answers come right away though. I just sort of open my eyes wide and tilt my head, and stare.... Like wow, could I be something like that?? What would I be?? Could I i really be?? Could I really choose it myself?? No limitations??

Hmmm. I really do sope I find an answer the sooner tha better. I might find even many answers. ;-)

Dear Grant,

I'm not quite clear about the point of your question. I mean, don't we all do this naturally, that is, live congruently with our inner convictions? I don't know how else to live. I know there is a word, "hypocrite," which describes someone who says one thing but does another, but quite honestly, I don't know how such a person could live with him/herself. If I believed something, and more importantly, if I preached something, then I for one would live it. Am I so different from others such that I don't get the point of your questions?

HF

Total integrity is something I desire to have, I have a lot of inner conflict, I wish to become healed and whole. I am very much a long way off from integrity. I am a hypocrit. But I desire to speak the truth from heart. It is something I am aiming for.

I am a lier, a thief, a braggart, in fact I've thought that I am most evil.

But I hunger and thirst for true integrity. I am far off from my goal.

Dear Grant,

I see. Thanks for your honesty. I suppose you started the topic as a cry for help, more than just an intellectual discussion-opener.

I'm not sure whether I can really help, but I can simply share with you what I do to keep my integrity. At the end of the day, it really is simply a matter of whether I can honestly review what I've said and done and feel good about it. If I can, I can sleep soundly at night. If I can't, I feel lousy and usually don't sleep well at all. So, for me, it's like a reward/punishment kind of thing ... be a congruent human being, and be rewarded with a clear conscience.

At an even higher level, when it becomes a habit to live one's life with integrity, then there's no longer such a need for the "reward." Then, it just becomes automatic, and doing good is its own reward.

You say you "hunger" and "thirst" for integrity. So, why not partake and eat and drink from its bounty? It's really not difficult .... if you believe something, live it. If you don't, let it go, but let someone else who believes in it partake to her satisfaction. There's a release and freedom when one lives her life truthfully. It's a matter of choice, a matter of will. Just as you have the choice to get up in the morning or to stay in bed all day, you have the choice to live with full integrity or not.

Well, at least you have the desire to live with integrity. Some people don't, and yet somehow it doesn't bother them at all. They have a real problem with "evil." You, my friend, are on the path toward "good."

Best to you in your journey,

HF

Thanks Hartree

I find it very difficult to be true to myself, when forces outside of me say my love is not true, I then accept others truth and invalidate my own.

It's the whole thing of interacting with others expressing your truth, accepting the others truth, and knowing that we know our own maps of our own territory better than anybody else, and that others know their own maps better than we do ourselves. The problem comes when we think that we know their truth, or that they know our truth. Or somebody comes a long and says this is THE TRUTH about you and invalidates who you are.

What do you think of the above?

For instance if we make a mistake and somebody gives us an identity label for all time, and we swallow the label for ourselves, but it is not really us, we then think we are what others think of us, and have lost self-concept, because it is stolen from us.

Or even worse...

For instance if somebody says "God told me you're ..." they claim to speak from absolute truth.

Or another one just as bad..."I had a dream revelation that you..." they also claim to speak from absolute truth.

One can lose their self-trust in their own self-concept and feel powerless to remove the label or choose otherwise because the label is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

Hi Grant;

I really like your question and have pondered that one in the past that was inspired by Master Lin in his Message Healing and putting out his own Message. The idea took root in me to search for what message was I putting out there in my life. Maybe I'm still distilling it but things have become clearer.

The point I think you should drop is the "Integrity" part. Life is like finger painting and you always get messy. I would trust in you to just do the right thing at the right time. If you make a mistake, so what, you learned that you made a mistake and get on with it.

When you get to a decision point the bottom line I go with is, "will I have a regret or regrets if I don't do that?" Even if it turns out to be a waste of time in the long run, I have no regrets. The question has been answered.

To place the integrity qualifier on doing the message in your life will send many failures your way. Then you start focusing on "things not done with integrity" and they pile up.

Focus on your message and doing the best darn job you can.

Aloha

Jeff

Dear Grant,

If you can honestly recognize that your inner voice is telling you one thing about yourself, even though someone else says differently, then what does it really matter what that other person thinks or says?

Of course, if what that person says is objectively true and was offered in a helpful spirit to help you recognize a blind-spot with the intention to help you grow and patch up that deficiency, then it would be wise to consider the external feedback. We are all growing, after all.

I can fully appreciate your situation, though, because I grew up in a fundamentalist, Christian family who placed heavy reliance on the voice of spiritual leaders. My folks had the unfortunate habit of patterning their lives on what the "prophets" in our church had to say about them. In a sense, they were allowing the Church to direct details of their lives, and my folks sincerely believed they were following the will of God as revealed through His prophets. This fit into their world-view just fine, and they are very happy and satisfied to have this kind of guidance in their lives. But to me, this flew against the face of all reason. When I matured and gained independence, I had to decide whether to be true to myself or to break with the mind-set of my core family (and thus officially label myself as an outcast along with all of its consequences.) Well, I chose the route of integrity, because I hear my own inner voice, and I sense that it is right (for me.) At first, this caused quite a stir in my family, but over time, things settled down, and I believe we have all grown through the experience. My family still worries about my soul, though, ha ha.

Anyway, back to your situation ... it really boils down to rising to the level of becoming self-actualized (a.k.a. Maslow). When we reach this higher level of living, we walk according to how our hearts direct, and it doesn't matter what others think or say. In fact, we don't even notice.

Yes, we all have a long way to go before attaining such an enlightened mode of living, but as long as we strive toward this end, we are on the right path.

Hope that helped a bit, and do let us know how you're progressing,

HF

Jeff

I think I would tend to drop a legalistic tendency to have integrity. I agree very much that life is messy. I have an aim though to move toward integrity for my own wholeness. I do healing work to move toward the goal, and do my best to be honest. You validated me on the point that integrity is difficult or many times impossible, as life is not cut plain and simple.

Hartree

Funny, you're echoing others in my life. If I honestly know my truth then why can't I drop that which is not me. And I need to know that, to realize it's possible. For me it is happening as an ongoing process, to drop the false perceptions about myself. It is a messy business though, sorting and sifting. You also validated my experience of being told the 'truth' as if it were from the 'mouth of God' and being hurt in the process. Have you dropped the label of 'outcast' because that is not your truth? I don't want to reject God , I want to reject the lies. I think I still have to learn consideration myself in the way I trample others with 'the truth'. There are greater truths than our individual truths but to claim we know them about another person...that hurts.

Forgetting yourself and thinking of others, I think is not about forgetting your truth.

Dear Grant,

When one speaks of "truth," one wonders what is meant. Interestingly, when Christ was asked by Pilate at his hearing, "What is truth?" he kept silent, although on an earlier occasion, he said he was the way, the truth, and the light.

I think there are many layers to "truth." There is, as you say, "personal truth," or "subjective truth," an internal standard which one upholds and lives by because it simply fits nicely, like a favorite shirt. But just as there are many shirt sizes, so there are many "subjective truths," and one should have the freedom to live according to one's inner convictions.

There is also an "objective truth," which one might call "scientific-mathematical truth" (for lack of a better phrase). For example, the objective truths about the force of gravity or genetics or thermodynamics, etc., etc., are pretty hard to refute if one is being objective and rational. Or, 1 + 1 = 2 is a universal truth about discrete objects (as opposed to amorphous fluids), which all people in all cultures accept as true. After all, the basis of economics and the monetary system requires such a truth about addition.

A Jewish scientist may vehemently disagree with her Christian colleague about the deity of Christ, but both will readily uphold the atomic hypothesis. They would probably also agree that regardless of Christ's Messianic status, his message of love and his example of self-sacrifice are worthy of notice and emulation. We may not all agree about the theology of Christ, but we can all agree that if everyone were Christ-like, there would be heaven on earth.

Perhaps the confusion (and danger) arises when one tries to elevate "subjective truths" to the level of "objective truths." A lot of the mess in the Middle East and the motivation behind terrorism stems from this kind of confusion. So, perhaps being a person of integrity means focusing more on the objective truths that we can all embrace and agree upon, and holding more loosely those subjective truths, of which there are as many as there are people living on this planet.

Forgive me, if I am speaking in such pompous, idealogical terms. If you will offer a more concrete example of what you're struggling through, perhaps I will be able to offer a more concrete suggestion.

Best,

HF

Hartree

Firstly I accept Christ and His teachings. I also am reminded that Christ had great compassion for people's subjective truths and I think He validated them where they were at by having compassion in the first place, once He had done that He told them to follow Him, to know greater truths. He did not deny their subjective truth, I believe the Cross is all about Christ making it possible for us to be with the Father, and to speak with the Father as His sons and daughters

Your Quote: 'Perhaps the confusion (and danger) arises when one tries to elevate "subjective truths" to the level of "objective truths."'

I agree with that, I've seen it happen in far less serious examples, where even in myself, I've elevated my opinion and said that is how it is. Maybe we should put a frame around it and say we believe it, but we will walk a mile in your shoes to learn what you believe, and based on your experience we will make many concessions to give you full dignity as you experience it through your eyes. It is very difficult to do this.

And then of course there are dreams, illusions, lies and prophecies, which are told as truth as you, Hartree, have experienced, and as you know dreams and prophecies cannot all be truth based, as we have experienced with many prophecies by many prophets.

Hartree, I have had similar experiences as your 'outcast' experience, and that is what I am dealing with, not because of any fault of my own, maybe I'm different or misunderstood, but that doesn't make me an 'outcast', in many people's opinions it is true, but I claim God's truth that He loves us all. I don't want to discuss my particular example as it is personal, I think I've layed the cards on the table pretty openly.

Hartree you have helped me very much through this time, thank you.

Here is a long discussion on integrity for anybody interested, I glanced at some of it, it looks quite good

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/integrity/

Grant, when you said earlier - if I know my own truth why can't I drop what is not me? I feel that for me, when I think that I am in a position of thinking that I know my own truth, then that is when I am in fact furthest away from it. For me it would almost work conversely - when I drop what is not me, only then will the truth reveal itself. The truth is beyond "me" and what "I" want. The truth just is. I probably just confuse matters and get in the way of truth by being human, overly materialistic and a bit ignorant of the wonderfulness of life most of the time. But I suppose that's what being human's all about too.
At the moment I'm fundamentally coming around to the idea that once you let go of both your ideals (and those of others) on the one hand and also those things you fear, avoid, dislike (both about yourself and others) on the other, then you reach a point where you become more aware and alive. A space is created for an awareness which opens you up to a part inside of you which is more connected or in tune with the moment. When I am in this space I am more in a position to listen and to receive inner guidance. Otherwise I suppose it's like fixating on one thing, while missing out on the wider picture. So if you instead stop looking at one thing exclusively, you are able to appreciate the full tapestry.
So I suppose, if I had a value or ideal which I wanted to live out, how would I go about it? I would try letting go of the ideal.
Put another way, my ideal would be to live fully, with honesty, looking at myself warts and all in every moment, with compassion and forgiveness of both myself and others, in acceptance of the now. I would also never presume to know truth, but would instead focus on cultivating trust in the fact that truth does actually want to reveal itself through me, if I simply cultivate an open, forgiving and honest, frame of mind and the right circumstances for that to happen - every moment, every day.
best wishes
Ingrid
PS: and the idea here is that truth is already there, inside me, inside everyone (an original blessing?) - not something external or falsely conceived to be grabbed at or aspired to.

Ingrid,

That makes a lot of sense, thank you. Very refreshing. Very human. A life-giving philosophy. Lots of freedom for yourself and others.

Do you laugh a lot? Are you a fun person? Sounds like it. Forgiveness and compassion sounds good. Do you spend a lot of time with others?

I don't think I could integrate most of what you said purposely, I think you have a message there underneath that all that you learn by doing, and by doing you learn your truth? I think that you are telling me to loosen up that life is in the living, and not in the ideals. Nice. Very nice. A goal that I can't achieve by trying to achieve the goal. Frustrating...A paraliminal should be created called...Freedom...within reason. Quite a paradigm shift. I mean you have aims openness, forgiveness and honesty but you don't focus on creating other ideals. Openness, compassion, forgiveness and honesty create a way for great freedom. I think doing that naturally creates freedom for others to have integrity with you. Those are really nice values. They are mine too.

Thanks for your kind message Grant. The world is definitely an interesting place. You asked me if I spend a lot of time with others, the answer is yes. I love living and working with people from all over. It constantly reminds me that there are always other perspectives. There are always surprises in store and everyone has their baggage, their story, their motivation. I have mine too. And these experiences and insights are all constantly unfolding, changing, moving forward. That's what I really enjoy about life. That's what I enjoy about this forum too!
best wishes
Ingrid

I think what I've learned so far from this, that integrity only comes from freedom to be who you are now.

I think in order to do this we have to love and accept ourselves unconditionally with all our "warts and all", and to be ourselves.

This was combined with a question I posted previously:

"Self-esteem and humility in the same mind???"

I have come to a satisfactory integration of them, that is, to love and accept ourselves unconditionally with all our "warts and all".

Self-esteem: love and accept ourselves unconditionally, and to provide unconditional support for ourselves.

Humility: being our awareness about our warts and all.

And once total awareness kicks in - perhaps then the answer to that million dollar question at last begins to reveal itself; Who am I really? Who are we really? What are we all doing here?

:0) Ingrid