Phoenix,

I may not understand, but I think you're saying that if you do not create your own reality then your experience in life is meaningless. I don't see how the two necessarily have to hook up together.

I don't think my life is meaningless, nor is the life of any other being.

I believe that meaning is created and experienced by us. It comes out of the relationships we have with one another. It comes from the fact that we have minds and hearts. There is nothing metaphysical, in my mind and heart, needed for someone to be meaningful and have a meaningful life.

I can look at an ant and see it going about its little ant life and be filled with a sense of meaning. This is the meaning of the ant's life to me. It's my creation, something that I am doing with my heart and mind. Does it really have anything to do with the ant outside of my subjectivity? Who knows? What does the ant's life mean to the ant? I have no idea. But a little life can touch something inside of me. Maybe I'm just an animated bag of meat that will disappear, aside from the memories others have of me and the ways I've touched their lives, when I die? Ok. I can live with that possibility. For me it's a great probability. Does it mean that I have no meaning? Of course it doesn't.

If we had no notions of anything metaphysical, even if nothing spiritual even exists at all, there is still meaning. Why? Because we are alive and intelligent. We experience it. It is part of our lives. No extra ingredients needed.

We don't need to believe that we are creating this whole thing. To me, I feel like... well, what does that have to do with anything? The fact that I *don't* create everything means a great deal to me. It means I can experience new things. I can be surprised. I am not responsible for everything. I have my own little place in the world, and I can live my life and figure my place out in the grand scheme of things. I don't have to be the almighty creator.

*shrug*

Regarding your statement about knowing that of which you speak, hey, give me a break. There are SO many different kooky variations on the theme here that there is no possible way for me to know the variety of new age philosophy you choose to believe. In any case, if you look at what I've written again from a different perspective, I think you'll see how it applies in a way that makes sense. My point was that fantasizing about a better situation doesn't necessarily bring one to you. Decisions and actions will. Believing in the power of fantasies can get in the way. If you believe in your fantasies, you can get yourself in deep crap. Unless you see things as how they really are and DO something about it, they won't get better. They'll get worse.

I don't understand what your experiences with the traumas in your life have to do with the kinds of misconstruing I am talking about. If you think that you can fly and jump off a building, you fall on your butt and maybe break some limbs. That's the kind of misconstruing I'm talking about. In the magical thinking world of you create your own reality through your thoughts, of course the "misconstruing" doesn't make any sense. But the sort of question you asked me is a perfect question to ask these people who believe that the thoughts of a 6 year old girl could somehow create an atrocious tragedy. I don't blame anyone for bringing such experiences upon themselves by way of creating their realities by their thoughts and beliefs. How could I? It's not only irrational to even hint at that kind of causality, it's inhumane.

Regarding the woman I spoke with, I did not intend to convey to her (or to you) that she could magically prevent things from happening to her by engaging in various rituals (projecting confidence non-verbally). I hope I conveyed that she could decrease the probably of the same things happening by projecting "You can't screw with me" vs. "I am a likely victim."

You can never be 100% sure that something will or will not happen to you.

I don't see anything pathetic and sad in a person realizing that she can actually *do something* about the fix that she's in. She was in a pretty screwed up relationship or two in which she was being treated like a door-mat. She changed her approach and got into much better relationships with much better people as a result of her own actions. What's pathetic about that?

Maybe you'd call that her "changing her vibration"? I like to describe it in more specific terms. She realized how her body language was telling people "I'm a door mat" and how to generate different body language by doing what it took to access her strength and be a stronger person. Even more specific than that, we talked about how her shoulders were hunched, how she had her head down, how her movements would start but then stop. Then we focused on times in her life where she felt strong and successful and noticed how she held her head up, held her shoulders back, etc. We also talked about various people who project strength and how they move their bodies.

And you know what? It worked for her. Last I met her she was married to a smart and successful guy from England who was a really nice guy. They were happy together, and there was not a trace of mousiness in her.

While I never had to witness my mother being murdered or experience rape, the tragedy I did witness was my brother being hit by a car and being severely brain-damaged as a result. He was in a coma for a long time, and he had two strokes while in a coma. When visiting him, I saw a reality of brain-damage that I'd never seen before. A full ward of people with brain-damage were being treated along with my brother. Some of the stories were harrowing. One guy turned a wrong corner and, bam, for no reason a bunch of thugs beat him near to death, leaving him with permanent brain-damage.

I heard many stories like that. To me the violence and the tragedies were meaningless, in a sense. They were totally unnecessary in many cases. That, I think, is one of the things that defines a real tragedy, the senselessness of it.

But we are human beings, and where there is no sense, we create it, because we must. It is a part of our spirits, if you will, as human beings. It's part of what makes us what we are. So, we go about building a meaning for these things.

In my view, these are all personal artifices. These are our own personal creations. We struggle and define meaning for ourselves. Pure materialists, staunch atheists do it as much as those who are totally religious. The particulars will differ, but it's all deeply meaningful to each individual.

I had to define my own meaning for what happened to my brother and my family as a result of the accident. It does not involve God. It does not involve fate. It involves decision, chance, and the strength of the human spirit. By human spirit I do not mean something metaphysical, rather I mean an inner strength, what makes us who we are as individuals, what keeps us going.

When I spoke about functional fantasies earlier, I made it a point to indicate building upward from that point. If someone is delusional, sometimes using the delusions to get them in touch with reality is the best approach.

If you want to believe you create your reality, then I guess I am just a part of that, right? You created me here. So, in essence you are having an argument with yourself. So, as long as I am providing some kind of metaphysical service for you at your current vibration level, let me just say this....

It doesn't bother me so much that people engage in magical thinking. We all do it. What bothers me is that people who do it, albeit for their own purposes that purportedly work for them, don't seem to even want to think that, hey, maybe this is just some kind of functional illusion?

I mean, the whole thing breaks down when you take a good look at the world. Not every kid gets a pony. Santa Claus doesn't exist despite the shedload of kids who are duped into believing in him. The guy who believed in God's protection so firmly that he got into a cage with a tiger and shouted, "This tiger will not harm me because God is protecting me!" got mauled to death by the tiger. He believed strongly enough to get into that cage, yet his belief didn't save him.

Rock breaks scissors. If you jump off a building believing you can fly, you're gonna fall, regardless. I mean, these things are just plain facts.

Not to demean the power of belief or anything, because great people who do great deeds have great beliefs. Their beliefs often can be said to be irrational when you look at the odds that were against them, but thank goodness they were irrational.

They created new realities through their beliefs, however, not because they created thought forms in the astral plane which created attractors to future timelines in which their dreams were already realities or anything like that. Their beliefs created the new realities because they enabled these people to act.

That's the difference that makes the difference, I think.

Sometimes we are at the whim of those stronger than us, but that doesn't mean that we are completely powerless. Natan Sharansky in Fear No Evil talks about his experiences in the gulag where he was brutalized in many, many different ways and wasn't sure if he'd ever get out. Part of his salvation came in the recognition that no one could shame him but himself. They could do whatever they wanted to him, but he held his belief that none of that was shameful on his behalf. Only he could shame himself. So he upheld himself in his own way.

He also found various ways in which he could turn the tables on his oppressors. I don't remember the details, but there was a certain word they used to describe a fate that prisoners all feared. He noticed they liked to use it and that he became fearful of it. So he decided to use that word whenever he could while in their presence. It was a subtle form of rebellion. He let them know that they couldn't bully him.

I looks like we disagree fundamentally on a lot of points, and it may not seem like it, but I do not what to turn you into a carbon copy of myself belief-wise... like I could ever do that. No one has that power. Maybe if my thoughts created reality, I could. But they don't, so I can't. Go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe, you will anyway. I don't entertain the illusion that anything I say will sway you one way or another.

You may not create your reality or have God-like control over it, but you do have a big hand in how you interpret events. That's personal. That's your own creation. You did it with me, by framing what my posts meant to you in your life. Was that my purpose? Maybe to you. I have my own purposes and intentions, and beyond that (and totally out of my control) what I say will mean something different to each person who reads what I write. That's because each individual is the artificer not of their realities but of what each event in their realities means to them personally.

In any case, thanks for the big smooch.

GW,

Why do your keys fall to the ground?

Simple.

Elves. Tiny, invisible elves.

They are all over the place, looking for things to carry downward toward the earth. It's an obsession with them.

It's funny that the atheists do the exact same thing as the fundies that they so denigrate do. They also tell people "MY WAY is the ONLY RIGHT WAY," pushing their agenda onto others.

It's funny to read your post, because I have actually been questioning my beliefs lately. Your posts have helped me sort out for myself the fact that I know far too much to fall back into your narrow thinking. I've seen and experienced too much.

Even more fascinating to me is that you actually used almost an exact example from my own life. No one can drive off of a cliff, do three end-over-end somersaults in their car, before landing on all 4 tires, and drive away without a scratch to car or person, not even minor bruising. Scientifically impossible. I nearly forgot that.

As far as children go, children's experiences are determined by their mother's beliefs while in utero. For some hard science on this, look up Dr. Bruce Lipton. Interestingly enough, even the scientific journals are starting to pick up on the reality that DNA has a lot less power than we've attributed to it.

Your beliefs determine what you experience in life. Whether you want to view it esoterically or from the scientific standpoint of the hippocampus or the basal ganglia or whatever the "Search Engine" part of the brain is, doesn't really change anything.

And again, you are holding up beliefs that aren't in line with any version of LOA that I've ever read or heard about. All of them speak of some version of inspired/right action. None say to sit back, shove your head soundly up your rump, and daydream until you die, thinking that angels will deliver food to your couch while fairies give you sponge baths.

This ridiculous caricaturization of someone else's beliefs isn't nice when it's done to you, is it? But I guess athiests don't need to be polite or respectful, because they have no reason to be moral or kind people. Athiests are all anarchists with no moral compass who want to be free to rape and murder as they see fit, because science has proven that we're nothing but animals (albeit smart animals), and that's what animals DO. Isn't that right? Just like all of us "LOA people" are just idiots who sit on our couches waiting for fairies to fix all of our problems while we suck down bonbons and snickerdoodles, right?

But yeah, you're right, I did draw you into my life. I've been lately struggling with what to put on my business cards and not wanting to admit to being an intuitive and a medium. I keep thinking that it's "woo woo" and strange, judging myself for even "being that." So I drew someone into my life to show me how ugly my attitude is, even if it is only towards myself. It's funny how sometimes we have different standards for ourselves than we have of others. I don't think someone ELSE being a medium and an intuitive is woo woo, just me.

I feel no more need to "defend" my beliefs. I should not have to defend them to myself, and I sure as heck don't have any need to defend them to you or anyone else any more. That is the gift I give to myself through this discussion. Therefor, this is the last time I will respond or read in this thread.

Enjoy your life filled with a lack of morality, my atheist friend. Oh, wait, that's a snide, denigrative stereotype with no basis in REALITY, isn't it... Sorry, I guess I'll leave those types of stereotypes for you to make from here on out. Have fun with it!

It's good to have clear thinking individuals like Babayada here. One can only wish for more THINKERS in the personal development world...

Phoenix,

If I have really been that snide and derisive and uncaring to you, I apologize.

We're both very passionate about our beliefs, and it seems we both aren't above being snippy and insulting. I try and throw my derision at the belief system and not so much at the individual, but I know that I give into temptation and insult people. So much the worse for me, I guess. But even in that sort of indulgence I think there is some merit. It puts fire into the conversation, keeps it from being too dry. What's important, though, is that each of us try and keep it together and not get too insulting.

It's interesting that you bring up the notion that atheists lack morals, because I was going to address that in my last post, but I thought doing so would have brought me off topic... besides, I was verbose enough. I guess I'm a bit intuitive too, eh?

It's a mistake to equate atheism with immorality.

Even when you're a kid, unless you simply obey, the ultimate judge of what is moral and immoral is you. Morality is not received wisdom from a divine source. We have a moral compass inside of us, and we judge in our minds and our hearts what is right and what is wrong. When you do something to someone else selfishly as a child and an adult asks, "What if I did that to you? How would that make you feel? Would it be right for me to do that? Well, how do you think little Johnny over there felt when you did it to him?"

When we consider that, we attain the ability to put on someone else's shoes and not just think of ourselves. Again, here I see development as a movement away from narcissism. It's not all me. The universe is not really you writ large. In a way, you can see it as such, because it's all being processed through your nervous system, but I think it's very important to realize that there is something out there that is largely not you and that you have to learn from it and how to deal with it. Just like I know when I post something, I am going to have to deal with your response and the responses of other people around here, who generally do not think like I do.

Going back to morality and atheism, I think it's plain to see that morality is something very earthly, mundane, and human. There are plenty of countries where atheism abounds, and these countries are not full of people who just don't care. I remember reading, for instance, that some countries with a good number of atheists actually have lower crime rates that countries where Christianity abounds.

What I see in a lot of religious belief is the lack of trust in the self, in the apparent, and in the material. Everything has to come from some other source in order to be meaningful, it seems. Meaning has to be divine somehow, magical, derived from some unearthly author. Why can't it just be simple old us living and learning in the material world? Why does it have to be some kind of astral thought form that creates reality or have anything to do with some gross oversimplification called a "universal law"? Why can't we just be ordinary people living in a world that is pretty much as it seems? And if our experience of this real world around us turns out to be extraordinary from really looking at it and considering it, so much the better. But our flights of fancy have to be grounded by common sense and real-world testing and verification.

I think there is more merit in looking a hard reality in the face and dealing with it, even if that "harsh reality" is just a possibility. My mind lead me to what for me is a logical conclusion given what I take to be facts. We're pretty much animated, conscious meat and the result of a very sensible process of evolution. For some crazy reason we have developed consciousness and get to experience this thing called life. The mechanisms that create consciousness are biological. Once those mechanisms cease to function, consciousness is gone. What I call me will be gone. Damage the brain and you'll find quickly that you have to radically change your notion of what someone's soul or essence is, because it can totally disappear with the brain damage.

This is it. I can look at that as a very real possibility and go, ok. So this is my life. This is my limited time here. I had better take a good long look at it and figure out what it is I want, what is important to me, and do my best to make my life filled with it as much as I can, because there are no guarantees. My power to effect change is limited. My intelligence is limited. My lifetime is limited. But that doesn't mean its meaningless, useless, or bad, and I am willing to admit that I am not too clear or certain about just how limited all these aspects are. You've got to be very brave and very persistent to find out.

I do not want to have to believe in magic in order to feel I can do something or that I am able to lead a worthwhile life. And luckily I've discovered that I don't have to. Atheists may be totally wrong. Who knows? But it's nice to know that the world through the eyes of an atheist is absolutely beautiful and totally meaningful. Much more meaningful, in my opinion, that a fluffy fantasy filled with cushiony psychological defense mechanisms based primarily in wish fulfillment, fantasy, and delusion. Not to say I don't indulge in it myself, or that there isn't a possibility that, holy crap!, some of it may actually turn out to be real. I just doubt it a whole lot.

Have you seen Children of Men? When I think of this stuff I think of the main character, who stays grounded, and compare him to the woman who deals with the trauma by repeating a mantra and calling to arch-angels to come save her. She gets the butt of a rifle in her face while trying to summon Michael the archangel, I think. She does nothing, really, to save the only woman alive who is able to bear children. The guy, however, stays grounded and deals with reality by using his wits. Another caricature? I think that new agey people have both that woman and that guy inside of them. It's pretty much their capable, realistic part making sure the bills are paid and the trash is taken out while the fantasizer can go around and indulge in wish fulfillment fantasies. Maybe the fantasizer provides some good goal material for the practical part, but without that down-to-earth doer, we'd all be screwed.

Is that a mischaracterization of the law of attraction? Am I really painting a farcical caricature of LOA? I think that at the heart of LOA is a delusion. What works in LOA when people use it effectively is simply goal setting and believing in yourself. Strip away the mumbo jumbo and you've just got normal, everyday effective goal setting techniques. Strip away those techniques and just leave the LOA stuff, and I think you've got exactly what I've characterized.

There are more sensible ways, in my estimation, to train your reticular activating system than using the so-called Law of Attraction. Setting realistic goals is more than sufficient, I think. Sometimes you may need to convince yourself you can do it when you have doubts, but if your goals are basically realistic, even a modest amount of moral support will go a long way. LOA is not "just" training the RAS. It's got a lot of baggage to it. Again, in my estimation. Go ahead and do whatever you want, though. I don't have to agree with it. And I don't have to not post my opinions about it for you to go ahead and do so. If my stating my opinions here is tantamount to tyranny in your mind, I think it's best that you make whatever adjustments you find appropriate. Those are adjustments for you. On my end, I'll continue to post whatever comments I find appropriate.

I don't know about your example with the car. I guess I'd have to say what you said was unlikely, but not impossible, depending on how high a cliff we're talking about.

Am I trying to push my beliefs on you? Maybe. A little. But the majority of my feeling is that I am making a case against a particular belief system and for another belief system that I find superior. This is a forum, and I believe that it is exactly the kind of place for this kind of discourse. Maybe you disagree? If you do, feel free to disagree 100%, I won't try to shut you up, but I will, of course, have something to say about it.

DharmaTechster,

Thank you.

I think that some people want to believe some things so badly that they just push to the periphery ideas and evidence in contradiction to their desired, comforting beliefs. There is almost a desperation in it and a very rigid sort of binary thinking... almost as if that if they gave up their cherished notions, there'd be nothing left for them.

It's kinda like the game set up in some forms of Christianity, where one can sin in one's mind. Even thinking outside the prescribed parameters has unthinkable consequences: an eternity of damnation.

"If I don't believe this, I'm doomed!" is certainly not a sentiment of personal freedom no matter which way you cut it.

I dabble in this stuff from time to time, just to see what happens. I find, personally, that the temptation to just believe what you want to believe because it feels good is much more powerful than many would like to admit.

And it's important to be skeptical about your skepticism, too.