Posted By: InquiringMind Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/22/05 03:31 PM
Hi All,

We have had some long and interesting discussions on the effectiveness of Holosync, meditation, light and sound machines, brain wave entrainment, paraliminals, subliminals, hypnosis, and some of the more esoteric practices and philosophies. Some take longer to show results than others, some create permanent changes, whereas with some, without constant reinforcement, the effect wears away.

We know LSC uses NLP in their paraliminals. My question is, since the paraliminals are so effective, would studying pure NLP cut to the chase, and be the ultimate, most direct approach to effect personal change?

If combinations of technologies are more powerful, which is the optimum combination, if there is one? (keeping in mine the old adage, that what fits one is not necessarily what is the best for everyone...)





Posted By: Tore Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/23/05 02:23 AM
I'd say that from my perspective the number ONE thing to learn is the law of attraction or the abundance course. Or anything that's about manifesting your desires. The rest is just content. Love, money, oneness, spirit/body, whatever.

NLP can be that but not all the way IMHO. Attraction counts for far more that just "running your braing".





Posted By: weight39doug Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/23/05 05:23 AM
Manifesting is horizontal growth and is fun...no question. Nevertheless, I personally think that vertical growth is the biggest game in town (eventually you have everything).

If you use NLP to take yourself apart and create ultimate flexibility in your patterns then you have less illusion. Scary yet compelling.

[This message has been edited by weight39doug (edited January 23, 2005).]





Posted By: Alex K. Viefhaus Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/23/05 06:01 AM
No one technique or set of methods is going to be the be all end all search for knowledge and understanding. Why we are here and how can we do it better.

So when you ask is NLP the ultimate way, my answer is no. It is one of many ways.

The combination of principles will be more powerful but what combination and when to throw a new set of ideas and methods into one's life mix is a very personal thing. We are all individual and we all learn at our own pace, when we are ready.

I received an email today almost 2 years down the track being a mentor to someone. He wrote "...I had blinders on". Now that he knows that he is open to applying PhotoReading but he had to learn some other stuff first before he could allow himself to see.

So the right mix is personal. Is NLP right for you? Perhaps have a look into it if you are curious.

Alex





Posted By: babayada Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/23/05 09:31 AM
I agree with the sentiment that NLP (patterns) is a way and not THE way.

It depends on the individual, really.

I think NLP is a very powerful methodology. I have seen people who are so good at it that their persuasion skills could be described as frightening.

When NLP is taught well it basically shows you that your brain does in fact have a coding system for information and that when you know this coding system you can create powerful changes for yourself.

When you learn to interpret the coding systems of others and speak to them in their own language, so to speak, you can be powerfully persuasive and effective.

What NLP doesn't give you is the wisdom to know what changes should and shouldn't be made.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, right?

Also, NLP can be very fast and some things might be best taken slow.






Posted By: NickR Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/23/05 09:45 PM
Babayada
Have you used NLP to good effect yourself?

Best Wishes

Nick






Posted By: babayada Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/24/05 09:06 AM
NLP has helped me a great deal.

It has helped me improve my relationship with my mom, which was on the rocks a long time ago.

It's helped me gather my resources and recoup in times of duress.

It's helped me prepare for public speaking events.

Most of all, I think, it has helped me get in touch with resources in the depths of my being. I do not think I would have been able to go in and find them without NLP. Other techniques simply didn't work for me. I was using hypnosis and trying affirmations for a very long time. I tried visualization. It was only NLP techniques that offered a very immediate response from within myself that I could attribute to the technique I was using. That is, it worked immediately.

I think I have internalized a lot of NLP stuff (such as language patterns, and, despite my contentiousness here, rapport in person) so they really aren't techniques anymore but unconscious aspects of my behavior.

When I was going to therapy with a therapist using NLP, we used perceptual positions an awful lot. At the time it didn't help as much as it could have, but it laid the foundations for changes in my life that would not have occurred without that work.

The thing about NLP that I really like is that you can get immediate results with it. It is something that is not based on faith. It is not something you have to do for years in order to see a result. You do the technique, and you get your response. It's immediate.

Some techniques don't seem to work with me like other people, but that's neither here nor there.

For a while I felt a bit like a magician and an evangelist for NLP. Anyone who was willing I'd do a technique with. It was an interesting way, too, to get to know women at college. You could show them something that would affect the way they felt immediately, and it created an aura of magic around you.

Another effect of the training at NLP Comprehensive was that for the first time in my life I felt deep in my bones that anything was possible. I really felt there was something better in life for me than what I was living and that I could do it, I could reach it.

But it wasn't just NLP that did that, it was a combination of the training and the wonderful people who attended it. I've never met a more interesting and ecclectic bunch in my life. Luckily, there an abundance of people who actually were what many people pretend or want to be.

That is, there were bonafide energy healers there. There was a guy who spent years in India under gurus and did LSD therapy while over there. There was a woman who was one of the best reframers I've ever met. Within three phrases she could totally turn my thinking around no matter what, and she'd have me smiling and thankful that she did. It was really amazing.







Posted By: NickR Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/24/05 05:17 PM
Babayada
Thanks for the detailed reply. I found it very useful. Outside of the founders (Bandler & Grinder) are there any books or tapesets that you could recommend. Although, I have read Milton Erickson and most of Richard Bandlers output, I still consider myself a beginner.

Thanks

Nick






Posted By: InquiringMind Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/24/05 05:18 PM
Babayada,

Thanks for your message - it is fascinating. What do you think about the Core Transformation workshop? Did you take that or the NLP practionioner course?

Cheers.





Posted By: babayada Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/24/05 08:46 PM
We didn't take the Core Transformation course, but we did do the method on the first day. They used it, I think, as a motivational anchor and to set the tone of the entire course. It was pretty awesome.

It let me know right away that this was something very different. It was an extremely different approach toward dealing with problems. That is a very powerful part of NLP that I find hard to internalize. It's very permissive and integrating ... working with both (or more) sides of an issue at once.

I think the Core Transformation process is a good one and has at its heart a lot of what is best in NLP. I really like Connirae and Tamara Andreas, so if you get a chance to take a course with them, you should do it.

As for books, well, I really think that the ones you didn't ask for are the best. The ones featuring Grinder and Bandler together are, to me, the ones that are really good.

A lot of NLP books are copies of copies, so to speak, and to me don't offer all that much.

You might want to read the books written by Steve and Connirae Andreas. There is Change Your Mind, Heart of the Mind, and then that Transforming the Self (I think) book by Steve Andreas.

If you could somehow get your hands on a practitioner or master prac. training on tape or DVD that would be ideal.

The Advanced Language Patterns set is really good, I think. It conveys a lot more than just language patterns. It conveys an approach distinct to NLP. You can find it and order it over at nlpco.com.

Home study is an option, but, honestly, it is nothing like attending a good training. When you see good, clean examples of the approaches and work around like-minded people, your development explodes. You will also be picking up subtleties from the masters who are teaching. You pick up much more than what is being explicitly taught.

There were a couple times at the seminar that I found myself spontaneously doing some of the magic I had witnessed, and I had never had that experience before. It was just coming out of me. During a few moments I sort of stood back and thought, "Holy crap ... did I just do that?" It was awesome.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited January 24, 2005).]





Posted By: NickR Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/25/05 05:50 PM
Babayada
Thanks for the recommendations. I am based in England. Richard Bandler is a regular over here, so I will take your advice. A friend of mine recommended Core Transformations.





Posted By: babayada Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/25/05 07:52 PM
Be careful with Bandler.

His methods are pretty strange, sometimes. Upon reflection, I think he is not above putting people through a little hell in order to "improve" them (or give them what is his idea of what they need).

If you can watch him work in a seminar on video, look at how he marks out messages to certain people. You'll see that what he marks out can be pretty shocking. Sometimes I didn't know whether he was actually trying to help or just play with people. Only he knows.

My problem when I saw him, I think, was that I was very naive and doe-eyed. I thought of him as something of a benevolent hero. I was shocked to find out that this guy has serious teeth.

If you go see Bandler, your experience will be unforgetable, and you'll bring back a lot of abilities you might not know you have. He does a lot of "unconscious installation," and if you're motivated you'll definitely pick up stuff just by being around him.

I went and saw Bandler and then went to NLP Comprehensive. It helped bring a lot out to a conscious level, and I have to say I learned an awful lot from Bandler, but he also screwed with my head.

If you see him, I'd love to get your impressions of the experience. I met some amazing individuals at the Bandler seminar. I think the field just attracts these folk.






Posted By: NickR Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/26/05 10:24 AM
Babayada
I may go on a less high level seminar first. I will go to one run by Bandler, when I have a bit more experience. In this country his seminars are arranged by Paul McKenna, a very knowledgable hypnotist. McKenna never stands still,he is always looking to extend his knowledge. One of the seminars Bandler offers has a cap of about 12 people. Before the seminar, people are asked to send in a wish list of what they want. Bandler then constructs the seminar around these wants.
In reading his books, I have found him very amusing.
Anyway thanks for the advice.

Nick






Posted By: InquiringMind Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/27/05 07:33 PM
Babayada,

After more thinking, I agree with your earlier message where you said NLP is a great tool, but is not THE Way.

As you mentioned, figuring out the what and why something needs to be improved or fixed in much more important than the process of using the tools for improvement or fixing.

To be able to look at oneself objectively requires one to be at a "higher" level ("looking at the big picture", essentially from a more mature level), which requires one to have a followed a process of growth, which would not have been achieved had one jumped into NLP directly.

For me it has been through meditation, LSC's paraliminals and courses, philosophy and some other processes and techniques, that I am at this point, and I don't think I am anywhere close yet! Above all, I think it takes time and a lot of life experience.

This morning I was listening to the Abundance for Life Main CD 1 where Paul Scheele says something like "trying to change or improve any aspect of your being using any techniques is not always successful, and can sometimes leads to even more dysfunctional behavior".

This is definitely mind blowing, and is more food for thought and contemplation!

Cheers.






Posted By: babayada Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/28/05 02:51 AM
Put another way, self-improvement may actually be an insidious form of self-hatred. It can be acting out a belief that "I am not good enough" or "I am unlovable" in a way that affirms it.

Stephen Gilligan went on about that at length during his visit to NLPU when I took my master prac. in NLP.

I think, however, that going into NLP doesn't necessarily distract you ultimately from learning anything, I mean, it might be part of the path, you know?

Perhaps it is all nonsense given a certain point of view and that we're all really already there and just have to realize it. But in the meantime, what do you do? Is that what Don Juan meant when by controlled folly?

There's something to be said about natural approaches and discovering your own path through life. Going slow can be a good approach. But then again, there's something to be said about going fast and using all this technology, too.

Go ahead an explore it, but keep in mind all the rest of this stuff.






Posted By: jeffdengr Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/28/05 05:30 AM
Holy Crap Babayada; that is some really nice stuff there.





Posted By: weight39doug Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/28/05 05:42 AM
babayada have you worked with any of Jerry Stocking's stuff. He used NLP to take himself apart rather then using it as an additive or preferential outcome/behaviour technology.

Learning Strategies used to have one of his books in the Recommended Readings section of this website.





Posted By: shr33m Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/28/05 06:40 AM
quote:

If combinations of technologies are more powerful, which is the optimum combination, if there is one? (keeping in mine the old adage, that what fits one is not necessarily what is the best for everyone...)[/B]

Right, in our market-driven society, everything tends to be mass-produced and packaged for the average John Q. Public. It's better to customize for each individual as YMMV.

But to respond to your query, the next step on the infinite ladder would be the meridian-based therapies of Energy Psychology. It is based on the concept that all emotional and physical problems are characterized by a perturbation in a person's energy field. Energy psychotherapy was started by Roger Callahan with his Thought Field Therapy when he applied Traditional Chinese Medicine principles (hehe, now he gives seminars with Richard Bandler). Sylvia Hartmann is also big on combining NLP with EFT. Although more gentle than acupressure, the leading edge of MET is to not use any physical tapping on any meridians using techniques like Instant BSFF, Emotrance, Z-Point Process, etc., to get faster results than months of conventional therapy.

As an example, the traditional method of endlessly repeating affirmations every day for a minimum of three weeks is not very effective if you kinesiologically test weak for the affirmation when you could install it into the subconscious in less than a couple of minutes using more efficient methods of energy work and not waste any more of your precious time on it. Faster results in less time and less effort - works for me.







Posted By: babayada Re: Is NLP the ultimate way ? - 01/28/05 09:00 AM
I have some really mixed feelings about Jerry Stocking.

I listened to his IC seminar on tape as well as portions of the Very Important Patterns seminar on CD.

My take on him is this: don't go to him for content, go to him for form. His response to someone is often a form of manipulation that is messing with their pattern of thought and behavior rather than a means of conveying linguistic information. That is, the content of the dialogue may be inaccurate garbage, but its effect on the person will get them to think and behave differently.

For instance, he will shift meta-programs, frames, rep systems, etc. when talking to someone and this will typically fry their (and your) brains.

Bandler sometimes does this, but Jerry is certainly more confusing. I think Jerry is a master of the confusion technique. You think you're following him and then the rug has been pulled from under you.

If I am not mistaken, he believes he has reached enlightenment. I don't share his belief, but I think he is one of the most naturally skilled people there is at what he does. I think he is a very intelligent person who is very slippery and skilled at manipulating people, but I don't know how beneficial listening to or attending his seminars are.

I like his Winning by Quitting book, though.

On another note, I have very little experience with energy work, but I expect shr33m is right. I think that you can introduce and/or cultivate energies that find their expression in what is right for you. I guess it has something to do with resonance and vibration ... good energy manifests in forms that are in tune with your essential nature. Makes sense to me.






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