Hi All.

I usually sleep 8 and more hours per night. Lately I've cut my sleeping hours to 6 - 7.15 hours and get sick quite often. I want to know how many hours do we actually need. If I persist and continue sleeping 6 hours a night. Will I eventually get used to it? Some sites on internet said that many people need more than 8 hours a night.. Maybe I'm one of those.

Interesting that no one knows why we sleep. It is a great mystery to those who are unfamiliar with the body's esoteric energies.

How much sleep you naturally need depends on strength and harmony of your subtle energy fields.

Skimping on the sleep, eating crap foods, breathing shallow do not allow you to replenish and harmonize your bioenergy. Sickness results.

If you eat normal american foods, you'll be in desperate need of more sleep. Running an energy deficit overtime, of course, results in dire sickness and early death.

If you meditate for even 30 minutes, you'll need a few hours less sleep. Nootropic drugs naturally and healthfully decrease the need for sleep by fascilitating energy flow. Likewise, if you do qigong, you'll find that you need less sleep.

And my favorite anecodte--in some Buddhist monasteries, sleep is optional. They are so subtly energetic with all of their meditation, diet, breathing, and energy cultivation/circultation that they just don't feel the need to sleep.

So, if you want to sleep less *and* remain healthy, you must attend to your bioenergy. Otherwise, it just isn't worth it.

I slept 10 or so hours a day my freshman year. This was before I got into any sort of diet/meditation stuff. I had a crap diet, partied often, and was quite energetically depressed. Fast forward three years. I naturally wake up after 7 hours. It just happens without effort. If I throw in some sort of cultivation that day, i.e. delta meditation, biocircuits, dash of ginseng, piracetam n'such, then I find myself waking up after about 5 hours.

My 'feel the power' posts chronicle a time when I went for TWO WEEKS on just 3 hours of delta meditation--WITH NO SLEEP. This was a great learning experience that solidified my own sleep theories, but ultimately unsustainable. Plus you have to find tons of stuff to take up all that extra time!

Wiliam Dennet wrote a great book on sleep called, "The Promise of Sleep". He's the guy who discovered REM sleep in the 50's and probably is the foremost sleep researcher in the world. He describes people that naturally, genetically almost, require 1 hour of sleep a day. He could find NO scientific reason for this, so he wrote it off to genetics. Whereas I would love to have these people analyzed by aura readers or chi measuring devices.

Interestingly, you'll also find that geniuses tend to have irregular sleeping patterns--which I feel may actually be RESPONSIBLE for their genius in the first place. Edison slept 4 hours and had 2 45 min theta meditations. Einstein slept 12 hours a day, probably had tons of brain-building REM sleep. Leonardo Da Vinci also had a really odd nap thing going.

Rise and shine.

Brian,

Interesting post. Very informative =)

Since I'm big on sleep deprivation and its major side effects (I've gone 5 days without sleep, naps, or any type of replenishing energy) I'll give the skinny on other stuff.

I think the meditation to replenish energy thing is very cool indeed, but I'm guessing you should still sleep until you're no longer tired - this will vary in between people, so it's good to go by feeling, no more, no less. It's like eating - eat until you're not hungry, no more, no less, and you'll be fine. Overeat or undernourishing is bad. I guess meditation would be like snacking on higher calorie foods (assuming good nutrition) because you can put off meals.

I'll mention what happens if you don't get enough sleep and it accumulates.

Last semester, I sleep deprived myself A LOT. Not for any good reason like studying (if you could even call that significant reasoning) but for no reason at all (read: sleep disorder). The most I'd get was 3 hours of sleep, and this would keep for weeks.

Finally, I started noticing things. I draw comics for a publication, and I started noticing my comics had a drastic difference in quality. Not just in the drawing skill, but in humor. The last comic I did almost made no sense at all, like my brain was the only one that could understand it because it was that jumbled up.

I also noticed that I wasn't reacting very much to anything. It was like I was repressing every emotion - jokes on TV or generally happy things didn't stir me. This sounds like depression, but it wasn't, because sadenning things didn't affect me either. I didn't even show anger anymore. I started mistaking this for some strange "enlightenment" and I was dead wrong.

My will power was incredibly weak. It was like my Basic Self rebelled and took over my Conscious and Higher Self. I followed every desire of mine (except sleep) and I wasn't even enjoying it anymore.

I failed two classes, and showed no emotion. I figured, "oh well." I should've realized something was wrong.

My mind and body had not received any rest for over 100 hours. I walked into my class, and my teacher said that despite my good grades, I would fail because of my poor attendance. I nodded, told her it was okay, I understood, and if you were there, you would have thought all she told me was the date or something. I showed that little care.

She told me if I liked I could stay (take the class for "fun") but I said no and got into my car.

As I exited the parking lot, I went nuts.

I broke out into tears, then starting laughing. These weren't little baby tears and giggling: this was all out "I just got shot in the chest" crying and screaming and "This is the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life" laughing. The hard laughing scared me, and I would cry and scream in fear. The crying and screaming seemed ridiculous to me so I would laugh.

All this time I was driving down the road. I didn't turn, I didn't pull over, nothing. I just kept going straight. The road I was on eventually emptied onto a highway, so I got onto it.

This laughing/screaming/driving straight lasted for almost an hour. I eventually pulled over to the side of the road because I was completely exhausted from all of it.

Not getting enough replenishing energy can drive you insane. I'm not kidding. I got one report on this weird brainwaves thing and it's actually true: you'll go insane (again, this doesn't cover meditation, so I would just sleep until you're no longer tired). Major accidents happen because of fatigue. Chernobyl was actually one of them.

To go back to theerapun, sleep until you're no longer tired, and yes, you're sickness can be because of not getting enough sleep. I heard of one DJ who died because he was trying to break some endurance record for longest continous play or something stupid like that. His body actually lost the ability to regulate his body tempurature after something like a week and a half and he just dropped dead. The coroner said that, as strange as it sounds, because it was a body temperature thing, it was actually hypothermia.

Basics:
Napping is FINE unless it interferes with your sleeping schedule.
Some people need more sleep. People with low blood pressure have problems getting out of bed in the morning, too.
Meditation sounds like a good idea to save time sleeping. But make sure you sleep until you feel rested.

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for the info, Brian!

-Ramon http://razor.ramon.com

[This message has been edited by razordu30 (edited March 12, 2002).]

okay
babies sleep around 20 hours a day
Kids somewhere around 10
Teenagers need 9 hours 15 min
Adults need about 8.25 hours
and the older folks need around 6-7

Wake up naturally if you can. On the weekends is when most people decide not to do this. You wake up at whatever time, but you know it's Saturday, so you go back to sleep. Then you wake up tired for the rest of the day. In psychology I learned why this works the way it does, your energy follows a circadian rhythm that naturally waxes and wanes throughout the day. If you wake up naturally, you come awake as your circadian rhythm is on it's up cycle, but if decide to sleep more, you most often awake when it's on a down cycle and your energy is going down.

Thanks for all replies.
Brian,
I've actually printed out your Feel the power posts. Very interesting. However , I'm afraid that meditation will give me the ability to remain concious while falling asleep which has annoyed me a lot lately.

I've tried 'Sleep Reduction' preset from bwgen.com serveral times so I don't know if it works for me or not. In www.supermemo.com 's article named Good Sleep Good Memory or something like this. They told that sleep reduction is a joke. The more theta brainwave we produced , the more sleep we need.... What is your opinion????? I'm confused. However , I don't want to play with those brainwave stuffs anymore. I'm afraid I will go crazy someday

P.S. I also wonder why Pete isn't crazy if he can do spontaneous activation at will. Tlingit should say something here since he's the one who claim to have frequent spontaneous activation. Don't you guys get damn annoyed if there're unconcious images 24 hours a day ???

I'm usually woke up by my dad. What should I do? If he doesn't wake me up, I'll sleep 10 or more hours...

Thanks.

Health is definitely something that will be affected with no sleep. Razor is right, it WILL drive you insane.

Whenever I stay up late lately, which I always used to do, I find that I start to get swollen glands in my neck, get a stuffed nose, and almost immediately feel like I've got some sort of sinus infection.

Razor kind of reminds me of Tyler Durden from Fight Club. He was a character that had insomnia, and because of it developed split personalities. "With insomnia, nothing's real. Everything is a copy, of a copy, of a copy."

When not getting enough sleep, you'll notice that things can seem more distant, and don't feel as real. If you're tired enough, you'll feel like you're almost constantly dreaming. You fingers may feel just a tad bit more numb, in fact.

GET SLEEP.

Side Note
Brain's post is quite interesting though. I'm still very new to all the things out here in the world. PR is the first step, then QiGong, the paranomal, life force, the spirit. Who knows?

Youngpr,

Definately =)

That movie is a favorite of mine because the guy has insomnia; I totally identify with him, as well as the masculine ideals in the movie.

I actually started getting worried because my girlfriend would talk to me about conversations I never recalled having with her. They were usually when I was really tired (either a wake up call or a call right before I passed out). Anyway, I would apparently have these conversations with her, and she would bring it up with me and I'd say, "I have no idea what you're talking about".

When you get enough sleep after depriving yourself of good sleep for a long time, you feel like you have super powers. "Where's my bookbag?" Hey, it's in my car! I left it there!

You feel like you're telepathic or something now that your brain is working.

-Ramon http://razor.ramon.com

To maintain original IQ (function correctly), you'll need around 8.30 hrs of sleep. Thats if you are between the ages of 20 to 55. Older people will need less sleep.

Personally, If i don't sleep at least 8.30, I feel like ****.

Brian, I'm still waiting for my Piracetam. I think its coming from South Africa. Its been 10 days since I order. Do you think that Customs might have taking it. We are allowed a 3 month supply, aren't we?

razordu30, What do you think about "Nootropic drugs"? Have you tried them. I've read two books about them already one of the is "brain Candy", and the other is "Smart Drugs". What they say about nootropics is very interesting.

I haven't tried them, although I've heard of them.

I'm not one for supplements beyond multivitamins, and it drives me crazy when I see people exercise for a couple days and head for the Xendadrine, Ripped Fuel, Hydroxycut, Creatine, Andro combination.

But I think that there's definately a good reason to use them (nootropics) if they work well.

I was going to ask you about the piracetum (sp?) you bought, but I saw in the other post that you didn't get it yet.

-Ramon http://razor.ramon.com

They can take up to a month. 10 days would be very quick. South Africa? Did you not order them from anti-aging systems? They are located in the channel islands...

I was going to order from Anti-aging,but they told me that they had ran out of Piracetam do to a high volume of sales. It'll take them around two weeks to get more piracetam from their supplier. Razor, If you want to know more about Piracetam, Brian is a loyal user.

From what I've read, it seems to be the most popular Nootropic among healthy individuals. It also seems to be free from side effects. There are alot of scientific research about this drug in the Net. If its half as good as many users have claimed, I'm going to ace that CPA exam.

Razor, This is an article from a well respected research team. They don't sell piracetam. If you know a little of statistics, you'll understand their findings.

Nootropics - and the healthy

Piracetam-nootropics have also shown the ability to improve learning and memory in healthy individuals not suffering from disease or severe age-related degeneration. In 1976 Dimond and Brouwers reported the results of some of a series of seven double blind trials, involving 16 second and third year college students "in excellent health and good physical and mental condition."

Subjects received either 4.8 grams a day Piracetam or placebo for 14 days. In three different measures of verbal learning and memory, the results showed a highly significant difference in favor of the Piracetam students over the controls, with confidence levels of P=.01, P=.02 and P=.01. The authors stated "the fact is that Piracetam improves verbal learning and in this it would appear to be a substance which is.. capable of extending the intellectual functions of man.. our subjects were not senile, suffering from generalized brain disorder, confusional states, or any other pathology of the brain... It is therefore possible to extend the power which [individuals gifted with high intelligence and good memory] possess to still higher levels despite the fact that the range of their achievement is a high."

Giurgea and Salama report the confirmation of Dimond/ Brouwer's work by Wedl and Suchenwirth in 1977. Wedl found significant improvement in mental performance in a group of 17 healthy young volunteers given 3.2 grams per day Piracetam for five days.

Mindus and colleagues (1976) reported the results of a double blind crossover trial with 18 healthy middle aged people (median age 56), with no evidence of somatic or mental disease, based on medical records and administration of several intelligence tests (group mean IQ; 120 plus or minus 11).

Most of the subjects were in intellectually demanding jobs, but had reported a slight reduction for some years in their capacity to retain or recall information.

After four weeks of 4.8 grams per day Piracetam, Piracetam subjects were switched to placebo for four weeks, while the original placebo group then received Piracetam for four weeks.

Results of a series of paper and pencil tests, as well as computerized tests to measure perceptual motor reactions, showed a clear benefit of Piracetam over placebo.

The three different paper and pencil tests showed superior effects on performance compared to placebo, with confidence levels of P<.001, P<.001 and P<.05. In four of the six computerized tests Piracetam showed a significant effect over placebo, with confidence levels of P<.05 for three and P<.029 for the fourth.

A fifth test showed a clear trend in favor of Piracetam, with P<.10. Wilsher and co-workers (1979) related their results with 4.8 grams per day Piracetam in a double blind, crossover trial to study the benefits of Piracetam for dyslexic students.

Interestingly, the 14 healthy student controls, matched for IQ with the dyslexic subjects, demonstrated a significantly better result on a test measuring ability to memorize nonsense syllables while using Piracetam as compared to placebo.

If its half as good as many users have claimed

I'd say it's about half as good. I read somewhere sciency last year that a good overall percentage is 7% more intelligent in spite of yourself. 14% more intelligent if you *believe* in it. Half the actual power is in the belief. Then again... I believe that half the power of any drug is in the belief.

Brian is a loyal user.

As my awareness increases, I move on to bigger and better things. Oftentimes, more subtle. --constantly. That is the way of Natural Brilliance. My question is "what underlies" meditation, smart drugs, good feeling, genius intelligence, enlightened intelligence and the like?

Piracetam works, I think, by increasing brain chi. ... it doesn't go down to the source, the sex chakras. It releases bioenergy in the head. What of the bottom of the spine and along it?

If all you want is 7 to 14% more intelligence, then that's cool. If you want more though... attend to the base of the spine--and connect it to the brain.

A genius has a super bio-energized 6th and 7th chakra, but what of the other 5? He's unconnected.

All the bioenergy you could ever want exists within you, literally and physically at the base of your spine, if only you could connect it to the higher energy centers.

People are lazy because their solar plexus is not "plugged in" to their sex chakra. People are selfish because their heart is likewise not "plugged in". They're living from their base sex chakra which is all about ejaculation and gratifying sensory desires like food, sex, sleep, work avoidance.

There are many lazy and selfish geniuses...

I want the full package. To this end, I pursue alternate means. Chinese herbs, energy devices, yogic stretching.

Qigong will make you healthy and vital, but again, unless you are moving energy up your spine to your brain... won't make you a Super Man.

That is why the Falun Gong cult was so massively popular in China--(I'm writing my senior essay on them). After ages of simple qigong masters (healers, essentially), this Master Li Hongzhi guy came a long and said that he had developed a system that could go one step beyond--to raise the energy to the brain and achieve enlightenment via qigong. I wonder if Spring Forest will go that high? Beyond vitality and healing?

[This message has been edited by Brian649 (edited March 14, 2002).]

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I wonder if Spring Forest will go that high? Beyond vitality and healing?

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Good question.

[This message has been edited by youngprer (edited March 15, 2002).]

Brian, would you please give more details of your program to full integration/awakening? Do you still take piracetam? Have you found something more potent/useful? Thanks.

I'd say it's about half as good.

Its half as good,but if you combined it with choline, it'll be more powerful right?

When you said that you have move to better things, does that mean that you are not taking Piracetam anymore? Are you still taking it,but with something else?

I take pramircetam, piractetam, and lecithin whenever I face exams or must write long papers. An 'as needed' basis. It's too expensive to take every day.

I have found something more effective to increase my base level of energy. I'll write about it at length when I have some time.

Attend to the roots.

Hel, Have you taken Piracetam?

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Originally posted by Hel:
Brian, would you please give more details of your program to full integration/awakening? Do you still take piracetam? Have you found something more potent/useful? Thanks.

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No, Gino, I haven't. I am eagerly awaiting your report of your experience with it. Are you taking choline by itself now? In what form do you take choline & piracetam? I am very interested in this. Thank you for sharing.

I guess choline will only work in combination with Piracetam. If you are a healthy individual, your choline levels should be fine. People with memory disorder that are related to age, or people with Parkinson,Alzheimer's etc might be low in choleine. When I was in college (last semester), I use to get B+ in all my classes. My most common grade was an 87%, which is a above average. As a matter of fact, I garduated with a 3.30 GPA, which is 3 pts less than a B+ average (3.33) In my first three yrs in college, I tried to race my average by turning to smart nutrients. I have taken : DMAE,Ginzeng,Gingko Biloba, B-Complex, Huperzine, Brain PEP,Kava Kava, A,Phosphatedilserine,Glutamic Acid, Glutamine,Vinposetine, Phosphatydilserine,Phosphorus,and a lot more.I don't remember now. All these stuff has not work for me at all. They have given me either Headaches or state of confusion. Its funny, but most of
these so call enhancers have made me less able to concentrate. I think that the only one, which I can said its a good enhancer is Glutamic Acid. I increase my average to 90% with this one. The only problem is that it made me starter in Spanish and Portuguese, I don't know why. I speak three languages the just two just mentioned and English.
Out of the three I speak Spanish 25% of the time and English 75%. The problem with Glutamic acid is that is makes you nervous. I hope that the nootropics have a better result than all these sack of s h i t.

In my last year in college,I decided to increase my average by external enhancers. This is the main reason why I joined this forum. I think that Pring might work, but I just have no have the time to learn it. I'm dedicating my time to study for my CPA. Since Piracetam is very different from all the nutrients mentioned and most importantly it doesn't thin your blood, I think it would work.
If not, I'll be certain that there is no such thing as a Brain enhancer. At least not for me.

Thank you, Gino. I've tried Gingko too a few years ago. Can't say that I noticed any effects other than a lighter wallet. When's your exam?

My exam is May 8th and 9th. Each exam is about 4 hrs long. Why don't you take Piracetam too. That way we can measure it better. In case you are interested this is the website that sells it. www.antiaging-systems.com
Its not that expensive.

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Originally posted by Hel:
Thank you, Gino. I've tried Gingko too a few years ago. Can't say that I noticed any effects other than a lighter wallet. When's your exam?

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I wasn't sure if I'd bother responding, but I think it's important because who knows who may be reading this.

The human body needs sleep. People who go without REM sleep lose cognitive ability in a measurable way. That is, they forget stuff, say "huh" a lot, lose focus ("you listening to me?"), and make dumb decisions.

People who go without sleep for long periods of time (many days) start having psychotic episodes. This means they start hearing voices, seeing things, and making bizarre comments, observations, and decisions. This is the basis of real-live "brainwashing" techniques. You want to crack someone? Just muck with their sleeps schedules and be patient.

How much sleep do you need? Like many people here have said, it varies by person (and probably is both nature & nurture). If you look for averages, you'll typically see 7-8 hours. In fact, in a big study in the 60s(?) that tracked mortality rates among people, and associated these with smoking (primary target of the study), they noted that people who slept 7-8 hours had a mortality rate of 1, and that each hour band in *either direction* raised the mortality rate.

Does that mean sleep longer/shorter amounts causes death? No. It's a correlation, not causation. If you're wondering about this, consider: is it possible that people who are very unhealthy (meaning diseased, not simply weak) also happen to sleep more than the average person? Is the mortality rate higher in that group?

Bottom line is what other people here have said: get sleep, find out what times work best for you, and if you're looking for a number, 7-8 seems to be an average out there.

-Jeff

Thanks Jeff It's really informative.

Yeah, Gino, I might consider trying out piracetam as an experiment so we can compare notes. I think it's available here as a prescriptive medication. Have you started already? What dosage and what do you take it with, besides choline, and in what form (tablet, powder,..?) Do you know whether factors such as age, weight, gender, etc. need to be taken into account when deciding on dosage?

Brian, what do you take lecithin for? Are there different types, ie, animal and plant sources? Does it matter which one you take?
Are you still working on your website?

youngprer,
i also have got sweollen glands in my neck.
have you healed yours just by taking enough sleep?

anyone who can provide some info. on treating swollen glands in the neck, please help.

regards,
shin

quote:

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Originally posted by shin:
youngprer,
i also have got sweollen glands in my neck.
have you healed yours just by taking enough sleep?

anyone who can provide some info. on treating swollen glands in the neck, please help.

regards,
shin

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Swollen glands can appear for a number of reasons. I've found that if I'm both:

1.In a bad mood
2.Haven't had much sleep

I will end up getting swollen glands. This is because of a high level of tension and not enough time to let it out...I think.

However, other times, this means your body is trying to fight off a disease of some kind, whether it be relating to general allergies, a virus, or infection.

You'd be amazed how hours and hours of sleep can turn you around, as well as your health.

I don't remember sleep... maybe I been awake for like 72 hours... working on something.

Good point! Thank you for bringing this discussion back on track. Delta sleep provides one with all the hormonal rebalancing and physically rejuvenating effects of sleep. This has been proven.
REM sleep, featuring prominent theta, with across-the-band activation provides mental and cognitive rejuvenation. This phase tends to grow longer and longer as the morning hours progress. The importance of REM in learning has also been established. In addition, a century of psychotherapeutic research- begun by Freud, and continued through prominent researchers like Carl Jung- has established the importance of dreams in developing the healthy individual. These are what I would call baseline facts in the question of sleep. The other aspect of sleep is the frequent, interspersed periods of light-sleep- meaning Non-Delta and Non-REM. These are periods of apparently little value in the whole process of sleeping. Unfortunately, nobody has developed a reliable technique for eliminating just those, while maintaining Delta-sleep and REM sleep. Furthermore, the amounts of all of these periods necessary for achieving optimal health are dependant upon the constitution of the individual. In other words, you must decide what works for you. Practicing meditation before going to sleep helps me sleep better.
I also experiment with lucid dreaming, one of the greatest joys possible in sleep, and to do this I wake up a few hours earlier than usual, stay awake focussing on my intent and meditating, and then after a while returning to sleep trying to bring a continuity of awareness through all these states. This sleep pattern requires that I devote more time to sleep but I think it is worth it in every way. I find that it rejuvenates, energizes, and refreshes my mind and body. Anyways, that is just an example of how one can tailor ones sleeping patterns to better fit ones desires. Also, I highly doubt the causal connection between irregular sleeping patterns and Genius, just for the record.
Here is a recommended reading list:
- Sleeping, Dreaming, and Dying. By Francisco Varela and The Dalai Lama
- Exploring the world of Lucid Dreaming. By Stephen LaBerge
- Any of the works on Dreams by Carl Jung