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These sites make meditation almost seem NAUGHTY, don't they?
Naughty and probably punishable in horrible ways. 
I asked about the fundamentalist religion connection because I happen to live in what is pretty much the buckle of the Bible-belt, where meditation, Reiki, kundalini, and almost all that is not their church (including teachings and practices of other fundamentalist churches) is somehow considered to be the "work of the devil." I sometimes even hear it from some of my relatives.
The websites linked seemed eerily similar to what I can hear at a family gathering, although perhaps more sophisticated.
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Dear ThoMag,
Thanks for including some links to help explain more about Martinus. I had in fact already found the site you include a link to.
Perhaps I am not the most captive audience for this stuff as I don't, for example, think that the Bible is infallible - nor am I a categorised Christian or member of any montheistic religion for that matter. I am also fully aware of the amount of suffering, murder and bloodshed that has been caused over the years on account of arrogant monotheistic religions (not least of which has taken place in my home country of Northern Ireland in more recent years, if you want to really talk about "danger") so MY immediate suspicions are aroused more by those very religious institutions themselves and less by attempts in society to move beyond them.
This of course does not mean that I am not aware of the degree of new age quackery that exists - but it does mean that I don't always go seek refuge in a best-selling book which is fundamentally based on Sumerian folk tales when I feel my fundamental belief systems are being threatened (though which of the numerous versions of the Bible, plus all that wasn't included in it in the first place are we actually talking about here?).
Besides which, I think it's good to have "fundamental belief systems" threatened every so often - it certainly helps to free us from recurring patterns of rigidity and self-righteousness whenever they manage to get a foothold.
At the end of the day, occultism/paganism/polytheism has always been demonised by Christianity (so have women, whom, as you may recall, were branded as "witches" and slaughtered in their millions not so long ago for not conforming to patriarchal patterns of institutional and societal domination etc. You could try taking a look at the book The Gospel according to Women to find out more about Chistianity's fantastic treatment of the female throughout history). And all this coming from a religion that is evidently based on an early PR stunt to outlaw older religions/belief systems, including worship of Mithras, for example. Now why do we have so-called Christmas trees nowadays - couldn't have anything to with earlier pagan worship of nature/trees or anything, could it? What about the notion that Jesus was born in December (the lambing season?!) - that clearly could have nothing to do with earlier worshipping practices centred around the winter solstice or anything, now could it?
I suppose the fundamental irony too, is Jesus' message of forgiveness - where is the room for that when everyone is too busy feeling fearful, self-righteous and controlling towards others who just happen to be different? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jesus himself hold the doors open to everyone? Wasn't that a fundamentally revolutionary message which has been repeatedly lost in the institutionalisation of a Christian Church ever since?
Scare-mongering has always been ranked highly in the top ten ways of subjugating the hearts and minds of society in order to keep people under the thumb of power hungry institutions. In my mind this betrays the very spiritual truths great historic individuals such as Jesus were trying to communicate.
As for everything happening for a reason - maybe it does, maybe it doesn't - it's all down to interpretation and choice of belief or philosophical theory at the end of the day. Fine - you weren't born in India, but for all those who were - why are their belief systems any worse or better than yours?
Just a thought.
best wishes
Ingrid
PS: The Kundalini site you link to states that yoga, reiki etc. are FALSE spiritual exercises, which they are not. They are valid spiritual practices developed over thousands of years in the East. They just weren't developed by (notably more recently established) Christian religious institutions (Buddhism is several hundred years older than Christianity, for example). Of course there are potential dangers with any physical practice - spiritual or otherwise (jogging, weight lifting and bungee jumping included!). I recall that self-flagellation was once a more widely used Christian spiritual practice and I'm sure there were dangers in administering that! (not to mention those belts with nails - now they would definitely have to have come with a health and safety guidance leaflet!)
PPS: You're right, Martinus clearly only "references" the Bible - as Christianity seems to have provided a framework for the significant mystical experiences he appears to have had - but the way he then goes on to articulate these experiences and the conclusions he draws from them sound very similar to a Buddhist way of thinking (particularly with his constant mentions of reincarnation and Karma - terms and concepts which absolutely derive from Buddhism) also he does consistently refer to pursuit of higher levels of energy, and the surpassing of conflicting obstacles (not dissimilar to yin/yang concepts in Chinese philosophy and Taoism).
PPPS: On looking through Martinus' words in greater detail, I do find a great deal of love and forgiveness in what he is saying and don't doubt that HE was a man who had a deep spiritual connection. I am dubious about the Kundalini site, however, which seems to represent a deliberate slighting of Eastern mystical traditions - the very traditions, Martinus' philosophies seem to support conceptually. Martinus's site does mention "false prophets" - but it doesn't state unequivocally that those false prophets are by extension automatically all Eastern mystical practices such as Reiki or Yoga. This seems to be a claim only represented on the so-called Kundalini site. Now why is that...
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1. As you say Christianity has made wrong to people. But you are also talking about that there is a difference between the church and Jesus and I am of the same oppinion.
2. These wrong things that the church has done was something that happened for a reason. So if there were women burned alive they might have deserved it/needed it to grow and those churchmen committing these crimes will or already have suffered for it. I do not know exactly how this is but I have tried to give an approximate explanation.
3. For those who were born in India into a Hindu family, that happened because of a reason, and I say that because I can not explaine the reason for everything, if for anything. They will probably learn something through it.
4. I think that Martinus himself said that he doesnīt want his cosmology to be a cult, sect or a religion.
5. I donīt know much about how true the Bible but there are many different views on Christianity. If you have time Ingrid, I would like to here more about your thoughts about real Christianity. Martinus wrote the Third Testament which has no hidden meanings as the Holy Bible. For instance the Bible speaks of one life and no reincarnation but the Third Testament is concentrating on the thought of reincarnation. The Bible might be talking about reincarnation all the time but it doesnīt say that in a direct way.
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I think it's pretty clear from my posts that Christian institutions are not a hot favourite with me for a number of reasons including the fact that they seem in the past to have frequently advocated suffering or at least fear as being a necessary prerequisite for spiritual progress - something which you seem to be advocating yourself by implying that women perhaps "deserved" being slaughtered. Now even if your statement is taken within the concept of Karma, this is a still a remarkably warped interpretation of what Buddhism is actually teaching - Karma and reincarnation cannot be understood in isolation without a simultaneous understanding of Buddhism's concepts of interdependence and emptiness. Without these as a basis, notions of Karma only go further in reinforcing the ego - something Christianity seems to have done very well over the past few centuries. And unfortunately second hand versions of Buddhist philosophies seem to be doing much the same.
Martinus may not have wanted his notions of "cosmology" turned into a cult, sect or religion - but it sure looks like that's the way it's being marketed now - I wonder whose agenda this is all serving? You said in your first point about Jesus and the Church being very different. Looks like an historical pattern might be repeating itself here, albeit on a much smaller scale. Should Martinus be turning in his grave now too?
By the way, if you cannot explain the reason for everything, or even for anything - how do you know that there even is a reason in the first place?
Ingrid
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As for everything happening for a reason - maybe it does, maybe it doesn't - it's all down to interpretation and choice of belief or philosophical theory at the end of the day.
All well-stated--but just had to add: even when things DO happen for a reason, the reason isn't always what we think it is, nor is it always the reason we expect.
Personally, I like to steer clear of anything that is fear-based. Having received shaktipat long ago, and various awakenings ever since, I know that kundalini is not a one-way path to h*ll as some would apparently have it.
Spiritual awakening, or any personal change for that matter, is not for wimps. It always requires a bit of courage, because you have to confront the unknown. If change were easy, there would probably be far fewer battered wives, who, out of fear, stay with what they know rather than take the necessary steps to change and freedom.
I see spiritual awakening in a similar light--go on like this, or move onward to greater growth?
Jeanne
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I think it's pretty clear from my posts that Christian institutions are not a hot favourite with me for a number of reasons including the fact that they seem in the past to have frequently advocated suffering or at least fear as being a necessary prerequisite for spiritual progress - something which you seem to be advocating yourself by implying that women perhaps "deserved" being slaughtered. Now even if your statement is taken within the concept of Karma, this is a still a remarkably warped interpretation of what Buddhism is actually teaching - Karma and reincarnation cannot be understood in isolation without a simultaneous understanding of Buddhism's concepts of interdependence and emptiness. Without these as a basis, notions of Karma only go further in reinforcing the ego - something Christianity seems to have done very well over the past few centuries. And unfortunately second hand versions of Buddhist philosophies seem to be doing much the same.
Martinus may not have wanted his notions of "cosmology" turned into a cult, sect or religion - but it sure looks like that's the way it's being marketed now - I wonder whose agenda this is all serving? You said in your first point about Jesus and the Church being very different. Looks like an historical pattern might be repeating itself here, albeit on a much smaller scale. Should Martinus be turning in his grave now too?
By the way, if you cannot explain the reason for everything, or even for anything - how do you know that there even is a reason in the first place?
Ingrid
1. It is right that karma and reincarnation is the fundamental topic in Buddhism but it is also the fundamental topic in Hinduism, which is an older religion. Martinus said that his books are ment as a further explanation of what God has revealed to us in the past.
2. Do you mean that his cosmology is a second hand version of Buddhism because he writes about karma and reincarnation?
3. When it comes to marketing, of course it is.
4. What do you mean by "Looks like an historical pattern might be repeating itself here, albeit on a much smaller scale."?
5. My answer to your last question is: I donīt.
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Just in brief response to your points ThoMag:
1. That's great - if Martinus believed his books to be able to contribute to helping people connect with a concept of "God", fantastic. And if it does help some people - even better. He can join many others who feel that way about their work/experiences etc. too. (I just don't see how the type of scare-mongering on the Kundalini site fits into the picture - though let's face it - Christianity has been scare-mongering for years so what's new?)
2. I don't know enough about his cosmology theories to know what they might be a second hand version of. I would hope that they are rather a first hand version of Martinus' own experiences rather than a second hand anything. The reason why I mentioned Karma in this context was because I felt that your comment about women deserving to be slaughtered betrayed a misinterpretation of the concept of Karma, that's really all. (By the way, if one takes your notion that people most likely "deserve" suffering in order to learn or spiritually progress, then why are you busy warning people of the dangers of anything? Surely you should leave everyone to "learn" through experiencing the terrible things that you think might happen to them if they engage in all these "artificial spiritual practices"? Would that not be what they "deserve" in this incarnation?!)
3. A sad fact.
4. I was drawing a parallel between Jesus' message being misinterpreted and misrepresented and that something not dissimilar is no doubt happening now with Martinus' message after his death - particularly given point 3.
5. Great. Then what are we all worrying about?!
Thanks Jeanne for your emphasis on taking courage to move beyond the status quo. There's enough fear in the world without either hair-brained pseudo-religions or mainstream orthodoxies (no matter how old) adding to the mix!
best wishes
Ingrid
Last edited by Ingrid; 06/11/06 11:55 PM.
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2. The Third Testament can be read online in Swedish in its entire form but maybe it will come up in an English version soon. I donīt want to talk about deep spiritual issues because I can not explain such things.
3. Everything is marketing. Every word that a person says is marketing.
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Thanks ThoMag, for reminding me, after all this backing and forthing, that in the true spirit of the mystics, silence holds a truth that words cannot.
A humbling thought...so I'd best shut up now!
best wishes
Ingrid
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...and the thread would probably end if a lurker didn't show up. By the way, this has been an excellent thread. I would like to add two ideas that struck me as a watched this exchange. The first is that the idea of karma. from wikipedia.org - Karma "Karma (Sanskrit: from the root ** "to do", [meaning deed] meaning action, effect, destiny) is a term that comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do. The effects of all deeds actively create present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain in others. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well." In my opinion a better definition would be that your past actions limit your future possibilities. In other words, expanding one's consciousness would not be possible, or would not move above a certain level, depending on how a person lives their lives. And learning to forgive oneself for past actions (removing guilt) over actions we took or did not take in the past (when, presumably, we were less evolved) is also an important step. The second is the idea of reincarnation, but that probably is deserving of a whole new thread. Coyote
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