Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Beyond Human Be careful with promising spiritual techniques

Hello Coyote!
Thanks for bringing up karma and reincarnation again - they really are fascinating ideas. I've recently joined a Buddhist Centre and go there quite often for guided meditations and some classes. The particular strain of Buddhism which this centre rerpresents is Kadampa buddhism (see www.potalacentre.org - Gen Drolkar is great - most likely the only Buddhist Nun in Northern Ireland!) , though I have also previously encountered the Japanese Lotus Sutra Buddhism a number of years ago, famously promoted by Tina Turner!
I'm currently reading a range of books by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso on different aspects of Buddhism, and also A Simple Path by The Dalai Lama - which is anything but simple (don't be fooled by the great photography!) and a great read if you haven't encountered it before. I absolutely agree with the sense of responsibility the Wikipedia quotation speaks about - particularly given the emphasis in general in Buddhism of developing a loving, open heart that is ultimately and most importantly dedicated to helping others to become released from suffering.

The reason why I mentioned interdependence and emptiness earlier, was that the cause effect dynamic, which is at the core of Karma, becomes almost abstract when taken in context with these ideas- particularly as Buddhism renders our experiences of reality to be fundamentally illusory and that true "Reality" lies beyond the suffering-inducing states of the ego. The notion of interdependence, highlights that there are fundamentally (ie. in the "Reality" beyond the illusion) no such things as separate individual identities or egos (without getting massively obscure this would thus raise the question Who am "I" fundamentally if I am not the me that I think I am or if you are not the you whom I or you think you are?). On the level of illusion of course everything continues to manifest in ongoing cause-effect cycles (including reincarnating births/deaths according to the same principle). But in this view, birth and death are therefore only transitory causes and effects (thus explaining the "eternal" aspect of life/existence at its most fundamental).
If you take this idea from the microcosmic level - e.g. molecules working together to form matter - e.g. even just thinking of all the of the millions of causes and effects which have come together to make the chair I am sitting on) through to the macrocosmic level - e.g. birth causing existence (one person's life) which then effects death which then causes new life etc. etc. I find it really blows the mind - particularly as the other key emphasis is on everything being temporary and constantly changing - nothing ever being permanent. (In my Spring Forest Qigong practice, I find that this concept of ever-changing energy manifestations really helps in the meditation visualisations)

I suppose when it comes to Karma, I feel that it is often represented in the West in much the same vein as the Christian - "you are sinful, therefore you and others should suffer you naughty, bad humans - you better do as I/The Church say or it will come and bite you in the ass". Fundamentally, Buddhism would agree with this, but NOT in a manner that is, the way I interpret it, embedded with the same sado-masochistic qualities. What I like about Buddhism is that it accepts that we are all in the same boat of ignorance - and that's OK! I suppose what I'm asking of Christianity is - whatever happened to original BLESSING?

There is more to "you" than you think - in fact "you" don't even exist the way you think you do. The key to alleviating suffering and to help alleviate the suffering of those around you is within you. This I find to be a motivational and inspiring premise for embarking on a loving, spiritual quest - thus I feel I am drawn to Buddhism (plus you can explore intricate philosophical concepts in Buddhism without being told that you are a) blaspheming or b) asking questions only that only God can answer - in fact Buddhism positively encourages questioning!)

You are bad if you don't do what this institution says and look how much a,b and c, (but particularly "a") have suffered just for you, you better feel bad about it. That doesn't inspire me at all. Sorry. I promise that this is not an evasion of responsibility on my part - I just think fear and guilt are not good motivators and end up causing more harm than good. (which I suppose is why I was immediately drawn into the debate on this thread owing to what I perceived as being a bit of scare-mongering - no offence ThoMag, I'm sure your intentions are good and it is, after all, as jeffdengr highlighted earlier, important to make sure that you are comfortable and adequately prepared for any new endeavours, spiritual or otherwise. Thanks for reminding me of that.)

By the way to any Christians out there, I don't mean to sound like a Christianity-basher. When it comes to Jesus - I have nothing but reverence and respect - I'm just not too hot on the institutional bits (clearly my prejudice - no doubt a blasphemous one to some minds). I am also fully aware of how diverse Christianity is too. I suppose I merely think if we were to spend more time focusing on the "Kingdom of Heaven within" and "forgiveness" parts and less on the "my religion is the one and only - everyone else is wrong and will got to hell" part (and no matter how much the hell part is underplayed for PR purposes - it's still in there, guys, admit it), I think we might be getting somewhere in the quest for global peace.

best wishes
Ingrid

I just started reading a book of the teachings of J. Krishnamurti called "On Love and Loneliness" that is a collection of his talks. In the forward, the editors state that "...At the core of his teaching was the realization that fundamental changes in society can be brought about only by a transformation of individual consciousness."

Coyote

I haven't read that particular book of Krishnamurti's yet, I'll make sure to look it up as I found much of his other writing very interesting. What you quote reminds me of a saying I read somewhere else too: put on a pair of sandals rather than try to cover the earth with leather!
It is true that everyone best leads by example - is this not why children always learn most by what you do and not by what you say? Like animals too, they always seem to sense unresolved emotions within you, particularly fear or anger, and respond or react to it. In Thich Nhat Hanh's book Creating True Peace, a truly lovely book, it emphasises how important it is to practice loving and open mindfulness throughout your life - and with complete honesty - even when doing the dishes! It is through the resolving of your own inner conflicts and tensions that you best become equipped to really help others.
A beautiful concept, derived from Buddhism, is that of the lotus flower greeting. Many Buddhists greet each other by bowing with closed palms towards each other's heart centres, visualising a blooming lotus flower in the place of the heart. It is a ritualistic reminder of the inherent loving Buddha-nature in all of us and is a greeting to it, an encouragement for it to flourish. The symbol is also encouraging as a reminder that the Lotus flower grows best in the mud, so even if things are not going so well, the seeds for transformation are already beginning to blossom inside us.
best wishes
Ingrid :0)

PS: ThoMag, you might want to have a look at a recent post on the SFQ forum called Is Spring Forest Qigong dangerous? - a useful qigong website link was included in the most recent reply by weight39doug.

Hi Jeanne,
Thanks for your lovely message.
I agree very much with what you are saying about compassion and prosperity. As you say, everything is cause and effect, whether immediate or longer term. I suppose most importantly, in a wider view, where there are no egos and no real separation, then there is no real difference between "you" and "me" anyway. To feel compassion and generosity towards others is therefore to feel compassion and generosity towards the depths of your own being, of "Being" in fact; depths which go beyond limited, selfish impulses and instead represent the full breadth and complexity of the whole. When in touch with that holistic reality, how could there be such thing as "lack"? How could there ever be anything but prosperity? Surely every need would already co-exist with its own fulfilment? Every cause would co-exist with its own effect, each effect with its own cause etc. etc. etc.? Is the path of true prosperity nothing other than a path of reconnection?

I suppose when we develop compassionate minds and introduce ways of living and relating to each other which embody this, we are no doubt beginning to put into practice a deeper understanding of the fundamental nature of how we are all connected, whether we actually experience this consciously or not.
When in touch with integrity and wholeness, divisions become absorbed - laws of attraction and repulsion/prosperity and scarcity etc etc. merely represent wave movements within a vast ocean. Meanwhile, we begin to grow in the awareness, in the deep realisation that we ARE ocean, and can finally appreciate the wave movements for what they are together with a firm knowledge also of what they are not.

best wishes
Ingrid