Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Beyond Human Self-esteem and humility in the same mind???

Hi everyone,

I have battled with several concepts for a long time, and I am oscillating as Paul Scheele would describe it between values that seem to be(are they?) at either end of a continuum. The values are Self-Esteem(is Pride the same?), Humility(is Low Self-Esteem the same?).

How would a cognitive psychologist describe a healthy system of functioning of humility working together with self-esteem? I have seen some subliminal tape scripts and they are not really humble are they, or are they humble?

Richard Bandler has in many places said that he values humility? In one place he says something like at least if I think I'm in need of improvement I will try to improve. But his words were stronger. But is he against self-esteem? He talks on an hypnosis CD of thinking you're special.

What does cognitive psychology say about these words, and if there were no such thing as these words(self-esteem,pride, humility) what would the realities be? Are some subliminal scripts blown-out of proportion? What are the realities? How does self-image/self-concept psychology work?As a man thinketh in his heart so is he? Should you play yourself down?

One of the things I find amusing is that different nations have different takes on what is an acceptable level of self-esteem, and self-confidence. What is right for one man may be wrong for another.

Have you got a well-formed take on the above?

Listen to Natural Brilliance...

Indeed, it takes a strong person to be truly humble.

vitaman

self esteem: i value myself
humility: i value others

self esteem and humility in unison: i value myself and others equally?

Ingrid ;0)

I would say that self esteem is realizing your importance as part of the greater whole and staying self aware enough to not allow yourself to be treated in a way other than what you desire.

Humility is likewise realizing your part of the greater whole and that the whole cannot exist without its parts. it is coming to terms with the fact that you are not the center of the universe and there are more important things in existence than you.

If you are looking for someone who doesn't contradict himself every other second, I don't think you should look to Bandler.

There is a path between self-esteem and humility, and that is realism.

In terms of following a philosophy, I like Nietzsche's more than others. You should look at yourself realistically and with sobriety and say "yes" to what is. Say yes to the ugly as well as the beautiful, and be realistic about it.

Humility and esteem often have to do with comparisons. I find myself torturing myself at various times and on subtle levels with fantasies about an ideal self, who I should be, how I think I am.

When you look in the mirror and don't like what you see, you should not seek refuge in denial. You should not try to lose yourself and relinquish responsibility in self-pity. Nor should you deny what you see and pump yourself up with a ridiculous fantasy.

Rather, you should take a breath and say, "Ok, this is how it is. I accept this, I will not harbor illusions about myself and about how I should be." Be realistic. If you feel like crap about the way you are, feel like crap about the way you are. Figure out why exactly you feel that way and what you can do about it. And do it.

I find that when I am realistic in this manner it is incredibly humbling, but it also gives me strength. I can confront judgments other people make of me and how they try to manipulate me and still maintain my balance. I know who I am, I know where I am going. I am not going to be swayed.

And, even when I am swayed, that is reality telling me something. Better to confront it, accept it, and respond to it in a REAL way other than losing yourself in a fantasy of pathos or hubris.

I am reminded of that scene in Fight Club, where Brad Pitt kisses Edward Norton on his hand and then douses it with lye. The pain of the chemical burn makes Edward Norton want to go to his happy place, then Brad Pitt slaps him in the face and says, "Stop it! This is your pain -- this is your burning hand. It's right here! Look at it.... don't deal with this the way those dead people do. Come on!"

I think that the issue of self-esteem vs. humility is a little like that. If you can face the ugliness in your life, in your self, with honesty and sobriety, then that breed humility. But if you can do something like that and pull it off, you may be ugly or have ugly traits, but you sure are something, aren't you?

We're not superstars. We're not God's privileged children. We aren't what Hollywood or the New Age are selling us. We know damn-well who and what we are. And if we start really looking at it and dealing with it realistically, we'll find that affirming what's real, no matter how base, is so much better than living in a fantasy.

A thatched shack is better than a castle in the sky any day... especially when the storm hits.

Thank you all for your wonderful ideas.

I haven't had an aah ha experience within me though, and I think this is because I'm battling to find a reference point for which to base a 'realistic' self-concept on. Besides how do you tell what is really a realistic self-concept.

The base for a realistic self-concept is what is.

Your reference point can be found looking at you in the mirror.

It's a *self* concept. A realistic self-concept has everything with who you are now, what you experience to be your limitations and potentials, what you tend to do on a daily basis, what you can do. What you want to do. What you decide is best for you to do. Your hopes, dreams, fears, aspiritations, despair, etc.

We all find, I think, that we must constantly re-evaluate who and what we are based on incoming evidence. We probably can discover something about ourselves new every day. There's a lot of error correction, going in this direction and then that one.

If you want to make up some fantasy and say, "this is who I *really* am." Then go for it. I bet it'll send you on a roller-coaster of self-delusion and misery.

Who you really are probably can only be defined by a massive amount of research done by a team of specialists who's job it is to observe you and create a model of who you are... along with several medical and psychological tests, etc. Then you'd probably have a pretty realistic idea about who you are.

But given that most of us don't have these resources, we have to rely on self-observation and self-reflection. And because we're dealing with what is probably one of the most sensitive and emotional subjects of our lives, ourselves, we're probably going to be very error prone. So it's touch and go.

I don't think it's all that metaphysical or out of reach, and I think you know damn well who you are. You may just be in the habit of BSing yourself about it.

You don't have to have a brilliant "AHA!" sensation when you discover something meaningful or true. It can be looking you in the face every day, and when you notice it, the sensation may be undramatic, maybe even boring, but there it is.

Babayada, then you'd agree with me that subliminals aren't healthy but promote delusion?

But I still feel I can have as many self-concepts as peoples perceptions of me. Even my sister perceives me as different from my dad. And a girlfriend might perceive me as wonderful one day but terrible the next. If I base my self-concept on my own opinion I'm really going to get a one-sided view!

A basic premise of NLP is that we are not actually perceiving reality, but have 'sunglasses' on through which we see the world, and ourselves.

If subliminals even work, then, yeah, I'd say that you don't need junk like that rattling around in your head.

I agree with you in the notion that we probably have many different conceptions of ourselves. I think this is probably a very helpful thing. Getting hung up on any one notion can be a bad thing. I guess the thing is not to take your guesses (judgments) about yourself too seriously.

A la NLP, you will never have one true notion of yourself. You only have a model, or rather a set of models, which you can enrich. Different models, thoughts, or beliefs are more or less available to us depending on our state of mind. State dependent learning and recall and all that.

Also, ever notice how good you feel and perform when your self-concept isn't even invovled?