Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Spring Forest Qigong Finger growing exercise

I am new to SFQ and have questions about the finger growing exercise. Basically, I can't get it to work.

Each of my fingers are the same size as on the other hand, so I chose the middle finger on my right hand and followed the instructions. But the finger stayed the same as the other one. Then it occurred to me that perhaps the fingers on both hands are lengthening. So taking a pen, I drew two lines on the end segments of my finger, 70 millimetres apart, and tried again. No luck. I then tried different fingers on both hands. Each time there was no visible difference in distance between the pen-lines.

Now it strikes me as odd that we are instructed to match up the crease lines where our hands meet our wrists. Wouldn't it make more sense to line up the creases where our fingers meet our hands? After all, this is a finger - not a hand - growing exercise. If you line up your wrists then even a slight tilt or curve in your hands will cause the fingers on one hand to appear longer than on the other. But this problem won't happen when you line up the creases at the base of your fingers.

Could it be that people with different length fingers unconsciously tilt their hands to the left or right, by an imperceptible amount, and thus make their fingers appear the same length?

So I would like to ask someone who has had success with this exercise, could they please repeat it but in the following way:
1. Use an ink pen to draw two lines in the center of the end segments (first and third) of a chosen finger
2. Measure the distance between these two lines, or mark it on paper
3. Do the exercise
4. Measure again
5. Tell me the difference between measurements in steps 2 and 4 (preferably in millimetres, or 1/32's of inch)

I would like the know what sort of increase in length we are to be expecting from this exercise. Also include the original full length of your finger for comparison.

Thanks all;
Barry

Dear bdavis,

This "finger growing trick" is an illusion. It is a common gimmick used
by hypnotists and other stage-type performers. There are a couple of
variations, such as comparing the lengths of the two forearms or legs,
etc. In another guise, there are "arm strength tests," where you gage
the power of two things by how they affect the strength in your
arm (Google: applied kinesiology, wiki), and this has been used to "prove" the
superiority of all sorts of nonsense. What these demonstrations really
show is how suggestive the human mind is, and our infinite capacity to
fool ourselves.

I congratulate you on taking the steps to actually measure your digits.
You wonderfully exemplify the true spirit of a scientist, someone who is
unwilling to take for granted what someone else tells her, but basis her
view of reality on objective, rational experimentation and observation.
I encourage you to further your exploration of the world with such a
rational, enlightened attitude.

Also, you can try this bodily extension demonstration, which IS genuine:
measure your height when you are standing, and compare that to a
measurement of your height when you are lying down. You'll find that when
you are lying down, you are actually several centimeters "taller" than
when you are standing up. The cause is not mystical at all: it's simply
that your spinal column is compressed due to gravity when you stand up!

I wish you the best, and I hope this post will survive long enough for you
to read it, as there's a chance it might be deleted for being too contrary
to the prevailing mindset of the folks running this site.

Best,

HF

P.S.

For a more objective study regarding how the mind remaps itself in
response to certain stimuli which gives the illusion of a bodily limb
growing longer, please consider the following:

Fickle finger's funny feel: digit illusion modifies touch perception

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_5_168/ai_n14895410

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050730/fob5ref.asp

Dear hartreefoch,

Thanks for your quick reply and references. I like to follow the "Trust but Verify" adage when it comes to measurements.

I'm finding it difficult to accept your assertion that this exercise is just an illusion. A simple party trick may be easy to pull at a children's gathering, but not to a group of adults. Also, it would be somewhat unethical and legally risky to sell if there were overtly false claims. I've checked the archives and cannot find any comments/complaints about this. So I'm giving the benefit of doubt and assume that I am either doing something wrong or my finger joints are somehow non-standard, if that's possible.

It doesn't matter to me whether I can grow my fingers or not, as I didn't buy the course for that reason. I view this exercise as a proof-of-concept for SFQ. But since I can't get past this step, I am now unsure about making further progress. Perhaps there are other exercises which could substitute for this one.

Cheers.

bdavis,

It is totally and completely unimportant if this works for you. I think you're missing an important point. Sifu Lin doesn't call this an exercise so much as a GAME. It's supposed to be a bit of fun. If it works, fine, if not, forget it.

Do the exercises and feel the qi. That is all that is required. Only time will tell if they work for you, but you will probably feel benefit quite quickly if you follow the basic 'rules' sifu lays out. Enjoy your qigong! Have fun! This has nothing at all to do with your analytical mind, my friend.

blessings,

Dean

Dear bdavis,

Regarding this "exercise" as a litmus test for Qi-based exercises (Qigong,
Tai Chi, etc.), you would be wiser to disregard the "finger growth game"
as completely unimportant, in accordance to The23rdMan's advice, and I
consider it as a harmless gimmick. There's a lot of real benefit in
genuine Qi-based exercises. I practice Qigong and Tai Chi continuously,
and can personally vouch for the effectiveness of Qi-based exercises. I
consider the benefits of such exercises scientifically verifiable, and
numerous scientific studies vouch for its efficacy. Even without
appealing to anything mystical, Qi-based exercises are at the very least
deeply relaxing, centering, and enhances mental concentration and
imagination, thus they have direct, measurable physiological effects,
which are generally positive.

Regarding the ability to fool adults, don't even get me started on that
one! Fantastic examples of mature adults who are willingly being
fooled are just a few clicks away. And, yes, you're absolutely correct
that there SHOULD be some ethical/moral conscience, or at the very least,
legal constraints, to prevent the distillation and distribution of
bogus-ness. Perhaps Aussies are much more level-headed in this respect.
But here in America, well, P.T. Barnum said it best: There's a sucker
born every minute. Some other wise person chimed in: A fool and his
money are soon departed.

Oh, and please don't misinterpret my attitude: I don't write these
sentiments scornfully but rather with tremendous concern for our society.
I have learned, though, that whenever I try to elevate and educate those
stuck in unhelpful trances (with great respect and courtesy, I might add),
I'm rejected as antagonistic, closed-minded, and not worth their time and
energy. Oh well, I can only try to make a difference and hope that
through our interaction and sharing, the seeds of rationality will grow to
bear fruits of true freedom from bondage to ideologies which no longer
serve us well. I hope you will become someone who keeps his wits about
him at all times. Gain wisdom to discern the jewels from the junk, as
there is too much of the later in this world.

I wish you the very best in your journey, and please share your progress
with us!

HF

Yeah, I have to agree with The23rdMan & hartreefoch here:

The Finger Growing Game is not the main point: it is simply a harmless diversion, a game to open the mind a bit.

Having said that:
I think the point of the Finger Growing Game is effective regardless of whether it is an optical illusion or if there is actually some measuarable growth.

I think the point here is precisely that our minds and perceceptions directly affect how we experience reality.

Right now, many medical schools are reconsidering the whole "placebo effect". The adjective "mere" used to be required when talking about the placebo effect. The tendency was somewhat to dismiss it.

That is changing radically at medical schools like Stanford and Harvard. Because of all kinds of inquires, studies and results with energy healing systems and the power of the mind and the imagination in healing, things like the placebo effect and "optical illusions" are being looked at as tools for healing in certain cases (along with traditional allopathic medicine ala the AMA).

I do agree that if there was a measurable change like that of when you lie down and stand up and lying down one is taller, that would give a lot more power to the Finger Growing Game.

But I think the main point is to show who what you believe can not only change you mind (i.e. your belief system), but can also change how you experience reality.

And one of the things that happens, in a system like SFQ, along with the healing effects of breathing, moving, being still, concentrating the mind in a relaxed way etc, is one's perceptions change.

You can certainly look at this an "manipulation". But I don't see it that way at all. Rather, I see it as part of the way towards healing.

The "Game" is merely (and pardon the pun) a "finger pointing in the right direction".

Hypnosis is not a bad thing, it can be part of the healing process.

And I do believe that Chunyi Lin is a real healer, a sincere and devoted teacher and man of intergrity who is in fact, teaching a method of healing and a way back towards integration of mind, body, emotions and spirit.

I think the "Finger Growing Game" is a cool little diversion that opens the mind for some people to be able to get more into using the mind and imagination towards oepning the channels and circulating the Qi.

I liked doing it and it kind of freaked me out. But even if it is just an optical illusion it changes nothing for me, not because I accept the rest of the claims of SFQ based on the game or anything else, but because in the true spirit of the inquirer, I have been "experimenting" with Qigong and Tai Chi in various forms and from various teacher for 25 years or more. And I have felt the healing effects without any finger growing!

I had asthma that I developed after a bad bronchial infection. I was given an inhaler that I hated the side effects of. I stepped up my Qigong practice at the time (mostly Tung Family Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan with some Zhang Zhuan standing, some breathing Qigong, and a few other exercises) and elminated the condition in a few weeks. The asthma had been there for a lot longer than that and was not getting better. It has never returned.

That is just one example for me. YMMV.

But when I began SFQ, I already knew the power of Qigong and also the power of the human mind, spirit and imagination. My grandparents, my father's parents, may they both rest in wholenss and may their memories be for a blessing, practiced Christian Science for about 60 years. I practiced it for about 3 years.

Now, I think Christian Science can sometimes be a bit extreme and I do practice it anymore. Yet I saw some wonderous healing both in myself and others. My grandma lived to be just short of a hundred and was healthy most of her life. Her mind was clear up until her death. As was her memory. Until the time she fell and broke her hip (in her 80's!), she rarely went to doctors for all kinds of conditions. I certainly do not recommend that toi anyone, but I saw her heal herself using her mind, faith and discipline. I experienced it myself on number of occasions. This was before I got deep into Tai Chi and Qigong.

So, for me, the only test I needed to do was : a) would I practice SFQ (i.e. was it a system I would habitually use and stay consistent in because I have some problems in that direction) and b) was it an effective form (which I felt I would recognize, having practiced in one school for 7 years and then also having studied others).

For me the results remain: I do practice this because it is easy to modify and modulate it to fit my schedule (but I am doing between one hour and three pretty much every day. I have skipped a day or two since beginning this about two months ago and the time I begin changes. I am working on that). It is also easy to learn and to do.

And, it is an outstanding form of Qigong IMHO (or maybe not so HO ).

"The Finger Gorwing Game"? I think that is just something for people who need to have a flash bulb go off for a moment or two, just so they might be a bit more open to possibilies.

Why it works or doesn't is mostly irrelevant. IF you REALLY want to do a test, try practicing for from 2-3 hours every day for from 1-2 months and chart how you feel and what happens to you in your mind, emotions, body and spirit. Chart your energy levels.

If you can't do that much, do whatever you can (from 3-30 minutes) every day consistently for as long as you can (for that little time each day, I would give it at least 90 days).

Then you will see and feel the value of this system or its lack. I predict few people will see or feel the lack of value if they do this.

Dear shakurav

Thank you for that wonderful expose! I value your experiences and
willingness to share.

Yes, the placebo effect is a very real effect, and it can be understood to
be a manifestation of the power of an individual's belief. At the same
time, though, there is definitely a very real physical difference between
the "placebo" and the "active agent." Indeed, it would be unethical of a
healer (mainstream or otherwise) to offer her patient a placebo (a.k.a.
snake oil) when she knows there is a known, active agent which will cure
the problem. As powerful as placebos can be, they pale in comparison to
the "real thing." After all, that's why they're called "placebos!"

At the same time, there are limits to the power of belief. I know this is
not a popular attitude among the regulars at this site, but it would be
wise to remember what history teaches us. Remember the Boxer Rebellion in
China? How much more powerful Qi-Masters can you ask for than a dedicated army
of Shaolin and other monks whose sole purpose in life is to develop Qi?
They firmly believed their Qi protected them from the bullets and swords
of the "foreign invaders" of China. What more noble a task can Qi-energy
be used for: to defend one's country, families, and way of life! YET ...
they were ruthlessly slaughtered by bullets and swords, and China lost a
whole generation of Qi-Masters in one day. That was the sad result of
their firm belief in Qi. Must this happen again to root us back firmly into reality?

(See the following for a history refresher:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

I for one believe in human potential, oh yes! But may we be guided by a
rational spirit, without the need to resort to irrational notions.

I wish you the very best in your journey,

HF

Amen, HF! That is why in some cases and for some people, a system like Christian Science can be too extreme.

There are certainly limitations.

My only points, which you seem to agree with, is that a) the Finger Growing Game is not the main thing, it is at best a "finger pointing in the right direction. And b) the whole point of it is to open up the mind to possibilities.

The only reason I bring up the placebo effect (which as you rigthly point out would be unethical in many situations), is because using the mind ala the placebo can be useful in some cases combined with active ingredients. There is even a possibility according to some of the research that is being done that the amount of the "real" drug or medicine can be reduced as the so-called "placebo" begins to work more.

The whole point here is not to move towards a "boxer rebellion" in medicine nor snake oil salesman, but rather to continue to research and use the power of the mind and imagination to increase healing.

And you are correct to caution for one not to go to extremes with this.
But I do not believe that one believing that their finger is growing at the beginning of their practice, even if only for a second or two is analagous to convincing people to stand up to guns and bullets using qi.

I do not know what is "popular on this site". I do know that while there needs to be a balance to trusting too much on the power of the mind, I also know that miracles do happen when people do allow more possibilities. And whatever the popular beliefs here are, I do not sense any danger or dangerous imbalances in people's use of faith or openmindedness from what is written here.

Nevertheless, a caution as you offer can never hurt, just in case there is a lurker reading these threads who ignores serious conditions that need professional attention.

I thank you for appreciation of my exprience. And I thank you for experience and knowledge.

Based on the replies I have received so far, my own experience, and mostly the lack to replies to the contrary, I am led to believe that this exercise is an illusion. If so, it's a bit disappointing since the instructions say:

"...This game works because we simply put energy into our fingers causing finger joints to open and the fingers to become longer."

I agree with The23rdMan that it is unimportant whether it works since the result is not useful. But I think it IS important if someone's trying to deceive. Personally I don't like being lied to, even if it is for my own good, or to open my mind to possibilities as shakurav suggests. Really, I would prefer that they take this game out, and replace it with another one - something that would give a "Wow!" factor, but not based on trickery. Testimonials just don't "do it" for me, unless I trust the source; I prefer direct experience.

Hartreefoch, you sound like an intelligent person. I am heartened to know that you find the main segments of Qigong are effective. As far as fooling adults, well of course you can, but it's difficult to fool all of them, as Churchill quipped, and I couldn't find any comments about this elsewhere on the web. Regarding legal issues, I know your country has much freedom of speech yet I was under the impression that there were restrictions relating to claims in commercial speech, especially in health care. Okay, I might be the sucker that P.T. Barnum referred to.

All this raises an interesting question: Is is possible that Chunyi has been fooled by his own illusion, or does he know it's only a trick to move us to the next level of exercises? He seems like a genuinely caring person, so I don't like to think he would deceive on purpose. On the other hand it's hard to fool yourself with a simple trick, so I don't know what to make of it.

Anyway...
I've managed to watch the videos and try the exercises. Whew! Chunyi sure has a lot of stamina. I had to do much of this sitting down as it's tiring to stand for so long - one hour plus.

Thanks;
BD

Dear bdavis,

Regarding health claims in the U.S. ... this has caused a storm of
controversy in the past decade or two when the FDA tried to step in and
mop up the sewage in the "health foods industry" in the U.S. Of course,
the leaders of the opposition were those company owners who had their
livelihoods at stake, and they roused up a helluva fight based on
constitutional free speech rights. In the end, the FDA relented, and the
current laws are such that as long as a product doesn't make a specific
medical claim, it's legal to say anything else. For example, if I want to
sell you a supplement which I believe will cure you of your heart disease,
I can say it "supports the healthy functioning of the heart," but I can't
say it "prevents heart attacks," which is what I really want to say.
It's a lot of semantics and a lot of lawyers make their lives by being
copy-editors in this manner.

With regards to claims such as the ones made by companies which sell
"self-improvement" type of products, they are protected by their
money-back guarantees. As an extreme example, it's perfectly legal to
sell someone a product which claims to teach you how to levitate. If
after 30 days you find that you're still stuck to the ground no matter how
hard you try, you can send it back and get your money back. If the
company returns your money, all is square and there is no basis for legal
action. If the company doesn't return your money, you can hire a lawyer
to contest the case, but in the end, the litigation costs will far exceed the
product price, so it's not much of an incentive. If the company stiffs
enough people, though, then, yes, a class-action suit can be filed against
the company, and in the end, the restitution would just be that you get
the cost of your original product back, and the court system just slaps
the company on the wrist. Maybe the judge will force the company to pay
the legal expenses on both sides, too, as a penalty. But it can't make it
go out of business just because it sells something outrageous. After all,
if that company is surviving as a business, it suggests there's strong
enough support from its customers, who want to be fed the kind of things
it provides to them.

"Buyer beware" is the general motto here. We would hope that all business
people are the pinnacles of ethics and morality, but, well, we have a long
way to go before that becomes a reality.

Regarding Chunyi ... I greatly respect him and his mission in life, but,
of course, I cannot speak on his behalf. I don't think he is purposely
trying to deceive anyone with ill intent, but as in everything else in
life, we all have an infinite capacity to deceive ourselves. I can tell
you this, though ... if he claims to be able to use Qi to consistently
stretch his own fingers to a measurable extent, then I can very easily and
objectively test his claim. If he would like to do so, I would be honored
to be the investigator in that test (which will be conducted very fairly
and documented objectively in the most open-minded manner). Moreover, I
will post the results for all to consider in this forum. I invite him to
contact me, and we can make arrangements.

Best,

HF