Phoenix,
If I have really been that snide and derisive and uncaring to you, I apologize.
We're both very passionate about our beliefs, and it seems we both aren't above being snippy and insulting. I try and throw my derision at the belief system and not so much at the individual, but I know that I give into temptation and insult people. So much the worse for me, I guess. But even in that sort of indulgence I think there is some merit. It puts fire into the conversation, keeps it from being too dry. What's important, though, is that each of us try and keep it together and not get too insulting.
It's interesting that you bring up the notion that atheists lack morals, because I was going to address that in my last post, but I thought doing so would have brought me off topic... besides, I was verbose enough. I guess I'm a bit intuitive too, eh?
It's a mistake to equate atheism with immorality.
Even when you're a kid, unless you simply obey, the ultimate judge of what is moral and immoral is you. Morality is not received wisdom from a divine source. We have a moral compass inside of us, and we judge in our minds and our hearts what is right and what is wrong. When you do something to someone else selfishly as a child and an adult asks, "What if I did that to you? How would that make you feel? Would it be right for me to do that? Well, how do you think little Johnny over there felt when you did it to him?"
When we consider that, we attain the ability to put on someone else's shoes and not just think of ourselves. Again, here I see development as a movement away from narcissism. It's not all me. The universe is not really you writ large. In a way, you can see it as such, because it's all being processed through your nervous system, but I think it's very important to realize that there is something out there that is largely not you and that you have to learn from it and how to deal with it. Just like I know when I post something, I am going to have to deal with your response and the responses of other people around here, who generally do not think like I do.
Going back to morality and atheism, I think it's plain to see that morality is something very earthly, mundane, and human. There are plenty of countries where atheism abounds, and these countries are not full of people who just don't care. I remember reading, for instance, that some countries with a good number of atheists actually have lower crime rates that countries where Christianity abounds.
What I see in a lot of religious belief is the lack of trust in the self, in the apparent, and in the material. Everything has to come from some other source in order to be meaningful, it seems. Meaning has to be divine somehow, magical, derived from some unearthly author. Why can't it just be simple old us living and learning in the material world? Why does it have to be some kind of astral thought form that creates reality or have anything to do with some gross oversimplification called a "universal law"? Why can't we just be ordinary people living in a world that is pretty much as it seems? And if our experience of this real world around us turns out to be extraordinary from really looking at it and considering it, so much the better. But our flights of fancy have to be grounded by common sense and real-world testing and verification.
I think there is more merit in looking a hard reality in the face and dealing with it, even if that "harsh reality" is just a possibility. My mind lead me to what for me is a logical conclusion given what I take to be facts. We're pretty much animated, conscious meat and the result of a very sensible process of evolution. For some crazy reason we have developed consciousness and get to experience this thing called life. The mechanisms that create consciousness are biological. Once those mechanisms cease to function, consciousness is gone. What I call me will be gone. Damage the brain and you'll find quickly that you have to radically change your notion of what someone's soul or essence is, because it can totally disappear with the brain damage.
This is it. I can look at that as a very real possibility and go, ok. So this is my life. This is my limited time here. I had better take a good long look at it and figure out what it is I want, what is important to me, and do my best to make my life filled with it as much as I can, because there are no guarantees. My power to effect change is limited. My intelligence is limited. My lifetime is limited. But that doesn't mean its meaningless, useless, or bad, and I am willing to admit that I am not too clear or certain about just how limited all these aspects are. You've got to be very brave and very persistent to find out.
I do not want to have to believe in magic in order to feel I can do something or that I am able to lead a worthwhile life. And luckily I've discovered that I don't have to. Atheists may be totally wrong. Who knows? But it's nice to know that the world through the eyes of an atheist is absolutely beautiful and totally meaningful. Much more meaningful, in my opinion, that a fluffy fantasy filled with cushiony psychological defense mechanisms based primarily in wish fulfillment, fantasy, and delusion. Not to say I don't indulge in it myself, or that there isn't a possibility that, holy crap!, some of it may actually turn out to be real. I just doubt it a whole lot.
Have you seen Children of Men? When I think of this stuff I think of the main character, who stays grounded, and compare him to the woman who deals with the trauma by repeating a mantra and calling to arch-angels to come save her. She gets the butt of a rifle in her face while trying to summon Michael the archangel, I think. She does nothing, really, to save the only woman alive who is able to bear children. The guy, however, stays grounded and deals with reality by using his wits. Another caricature? I think that new agey people have both that woman and that guy inside of them. It's pretty much their capable, realistic part making sure the bills are paid and the trash is taken out while the fantasizer can go around and indulge in wish fulfillment fantasies. Maybe the fantasizer provides some good goal material for the practical part, but without that down-to-earth doer, we'd all be screwed.
Is that a mischaracterization of the law of attraction? Am I really painting a farcical caricature of LOA? I think that at the heart of LOA is a delusion. What works in LOA when people use it effectively is simply goal setting and believing in yourself. Strip away the mumbo jumbo and you've just got normal, everyday effective goal setting techniques. Strip away those techniques and just leave the LOA stuff, and I think you've got exactly what I've characterized.
There are more sensible ways, in my estimation, to train your reticular activating system than using the so-called Law of Attraction. Setting realistic goals is more than sufficient, I think. Sometimes you may need to convince yourself you can do it when you have doubts, but if your goals are basically realistic, even a modest amount of moral support will go a long way. LOA is not "just" training the RAS. It's got a lot of baggage to it. Again, in my estimation. Go ahead and do whatever you want, though. I don't have to agree with it. And I don't have to not post my opinions about it for you to go ahead and do so. If my stating my opinions here is tantamount to tyranny in your mind, I think it's best that you make whatever adjustments you find appropriate. Those are adjustments for you. On my end, I'll continue to post whatever comments I find appropriate.
I don't know about your example with the car. I guess I'd have to say what you said was unlikely, but not impossible, depending on how high a cliff we're talking about.
Am I trying to push my beliefs on you? Maybe. A little. But the majority of my feeling is that I am making a case against a particular belief system and for another belief system that I find superior. This is a forum, and I believe that it is exactly the kind of place for this kind of discourse. Maybe you disagree? If you do, feel free to disagree 100%, I won't try to shut you up, but I will, of course, have something to say about it.
