Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Abundance for Life, Effortless Success Prayer vs. Manifestation

So, here's my thought / question of the day, a bit more positive, I hope ....

Is the "manifestation process" essentially the same as "prayer"?

It seems like the core concepts of manifestation and abundance are just the same as what was taught to me in Sunday school ....

* Pray to God for your wants and needs;
* Trust and believe God will provide;
* When God answers your prayer, be thankful;
* Give a portion of the blessings to others and back to God;
* If God doesn't answer your prayers, then what you asked for wasn't in your best interest and is not part of God's will, or be patient, and God will answer when the time is right;
* God helps those who helps themselves;
* Everything happens according to God's plan ... there are no accidents, mistakes, coincidences ... all things happen for the good of those who love God;
* Happiness is to know the Saviour;
* Above all, love others as yourself.

... but now re-framed as ...

* Focus your attention and intention upon what you want and need;
* Trust and believe the _______ (Universe, Other-Than-Conscious-Mind, Intuition, Force, Life, Nature ... etc.) will provide;
* When your desires are manifested, be grateful;
* Share the blessing with others;
* If what you wanted is not manifested, it wasn't congruent with your core being in the first place, or be patient and let the Universe (etc.) work out the details in its perfect time;
* Trust your intuition to guide you to act appropriately;
* There are no coincidences, just manifestations;
* Happiness is to know yourself;
* Above all, love others as yourself.

Okay, I know that truth is truth, but is this comparison a fair one, and we've just shifted perspective from "God" to some other Provider (the Universe, etc.) ? Am I missing something, or have these priniciples been ageless and presented in every Good Book throughout history?

[This message has been edited by hartreefoch (edited March 09, 2006).]

If you'll allow me a cynical afterthought (returning to my old nature, ha ha ...)

.... If prayer and manifestation are truly equivalent (following upon my epiphany in a previous post about AFL being targetted for those who are already miserably rich), then, it seems like AFL is a program which brings to the miserably-rich atheist / agnostic what the poor theist already knows to be true.

(This is not meant to offend anyone ... Please read with a laugh ... I just love finding humor in everything, thanks.)

[This message has been edited by hartreefoch (edited March 09, 2006).]

I have an answer for this one but Im sorry its gonna take up too much time to write it cause its just too long, too much to explain, put it this way if I were to write it down it might come close to 10 A4 pages and I dont have the time to post it up especially at the rate I type with my two index fingers, he he..
You said that you photo read, Id love to do that. read up on psychology and different books on the brain, Im sure you will be able to answer it urself.

If you think that AFL is targeting the miserably-rich atheist / agnostic, then it is, but only to you. Whatever you think of AFL your mind will bring up stuff to back it up to prove to yourself that you are right, keep a close eye on your thoughts and what kind of thoughts you are allowing yourself to think of. or would you rather focus your energy on thoughts that you do want to think about, one that is your choice, one thats worth wasting your energy on rather than looking for the negative side of things,

Its totally unstandable why you would be looking for the negative aspects of AFL intentionally if any, having said that, now suppose you were digging up all the positive aspects of AFL, what do you think would happen? how would that make you feel?
I mean how do you feel now thinking that AFL is what you say they are or what you think they are all about? How do you feel toward AFL? if its a good feeling then you are contradicting yourself, your not feeling deep enough to find that feeling you now associate with AFL, if how ever it is that negative feeling at some level, remember that feeling, this is a feeling you have towards AFL as a result of your chain of thoughts about AFL, how would you feel if you were digging up the good things about AFL? how you will feel at the end of it all?
if you are feeling good about AFL now I know it will speed your progress with manifesting what your after, whatever it maybe, its entirely up to you.
Now you can choose what you want, power to me is being aware of what you can and capable of doing and achieving and that is all, AFL does that and its also in easy to follow steps, you just cant go wrong..
have fun and take care
Aki....

[This message has been edited by liuaki_F (edited March 12, 2006).]

liuaki_F,

Thanks for your response.

Just to clarify, I'm really not trying to purposely find negatives about AFL. I appreciate the program as a whole, and the time and energy that went into producing it. I'm just trying to make AFL completely congruent, and my posts in this forum reflect my inner struggles to do so.

For example, I have a global consciousness and am aware of the poverty and struggles of 3rd world societies. So, it seemed incongruent that AFL should be making fat, rich people, while the vast majority of humanity langours in constant hunger ... that's why I wanted to make AFL a globally free program, because if it really works, it can help the majority of the world. My global concern also makes me concerned about "evil" and crime, and so if LSC products can make "good" people "better", why can't it make "bad" people "good". etc. I'm also very careful in weeding out the many silly ideas floating out there that have been created only to make their creators rich. That's why I urge careful analysis and examination of all ideologies from every angle, because blind acceptance only leads to richer cons.

In this particular post, I'm merely pointing out that as a whole, the manifestation process as presented in AFL appears to be basically the same as what is taught by any good religion: prayer. I just note that is funny, because many people who turn to religion are the poor and humble, and they get these truths for free. Certainly, AFL is out of their financial reach, so those who can afford AFL have already attained a certain measure of financial success. In the end, both sets of people get the same truth, though presented in a different context.

As Alex said in a response to an earlier post, the core truths in AFL are free to all and is already out there in the world in many ways. All I'm doing with this post is making one of those connection more obvious.

Please don't see my comments in a negative light, but in a positive light, as I meant them to be. Prayer is a good thing. Manifestation is a good thing. To me, it appears they are essentially one and the same thing. If you have a different view, I would appreciate your sharing them. No need to write 10 A4 pages ... just a synopsis would be helpful, thanks.

Joy and Light!

I heard a great quote from that chicken soup guy (his name escapes me at the moment) during a presentation he was giving:

"The best way to help the poor is not be one of them!"

George

Everyone who is looking for financial gains, it just does not neccessarily mean its there number one priority. it would actually be the poor that would use AFL to better their financial status. there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. All the rich that you refer to already had the money before they came across AFL, so in actual fact it would seem that they would be using it to better other areas in their lives, wouldnt you agree. Could it be that its because your using AFL to better your financial situation you think that the rich is doing the same thing, why would they? they already have the money. They spend alot of their energy creating that money for themselves that maybe they are lacking in other areas in their lives, things like their relationships with other people or their partner, their social skills,therefor use it for other than what you think they are using AFL for.
What we do in any given situation, the person next to you might not do it the same way or use it the same way as you.
The world is as it is, just is. The thing is is that we as humans, through our senses percieve the world different according to our beliefs which forms the world within and we project that world within onto the physical world through our actions and the world changes accordingly.
Me personally I dont believe there is a god so im not going to go there with the religion or AFL questions that you were after cause some might get offended. So Im going to repect their beliefs and keep that one to myself but that doesnt mean that I wouldve sat here and bagged religion and god,
If the tap isnt leaking why fix it?
If it works then let it work, why question it? question it if it doesnt so that you can find a way to make the tap work so that you can have running water.
If your so concerned with all the poor people in the world, you have a great tool with you now(AFL) use it to your advantage and then find a way to contribute to those you think are in need of your help. and if your thinking of introducing them to AFL concepts then no one is going to stop you, having said that Ill tell you this aswell, the only way for you to be successful at doing that is that you are successful with AFL yourself. Make it work for yourself and you will find the best way for you to contribute to them.
oh and yes you can turn someone evil around. the question is, Do they think that they are evil for them to change to being good and would they want to change. If they dont want to change then you cant change them, but if they wanted to they could. and they just might not want to change cause they dont think what they are doing is evil, to them thats how life is. its their perception of the world against yours, to them who do you think is going to win? they will, so fat chance changing them.

The many silly ideas floating out there that have been created only to make their creators rich has become a belief to you, have you taken that belief of yours through the inquiry process?

ps. find out as much info as you can about the relationship between ur conscious mind and ur sub-conscious mind. Doing it for yourself would give you a much more understanding of it all, and you will see the difference between AFL and what was being taught through religion that you are looking for..

gatta jet
take care

[This message has been edited by liuaki_F (edited March 13, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by gwhutton:

"The best way to help the poor is not be one of them!"

---

Hmm ... some of the greatest people in history "became poor" and only then did they become enlightened. For example, Buddha and Christ immediately come to mind. Also, King Henry, who disguised himself as an ordinary soldier before battle to truly understand what it felt like to be fighting a war on the ground level. And that good king of France (or some European king ... I forget who exactly) who disguised himself as a commoner to really experience the reality of living in his kingdom.

I hope that quote was originally delivered by that author of the Chicken Soup book with a sense of humor, because to me, it seems like to really help the poor, we have to gain first-hand experience of their reailty to fully understand their condition. Otherwise, the gap just gets wider and wider.

Hi there,
Interesting points about poverty. I always remind myself that there is a major difference between material poverty/wealth and mental or spiritual poverty/wealth.

I am therefore naturally dubious about a spiritual/motivational programme that actually promises MATERIAL wealth. I can therefore fully understand your doubts, Hartreefoch.
Surely it is more powerful and sustainable to cultivate a mindset which perceives and experience life as abundant (no matter what the conditions) than to actually achieve material abundance - which after all is only one form of abundance and is very temporary?

That said, it is easy to have these conversations and discussions about "positive and abundant" mentalities when food is on the table and my family isn't in the process of starving to death.

At the end of the day I believe it is more productive to contemplate generosity and giving in your life rather than focusing on whatever number of material gains may or may not be coming your way. I also think it is most powerful to live fully life for every moment, in the present, and to connect deeply with others no matter what the circumstances. That represents real abundance in my view.

best wishes
Ingrid :0)

The "Prayer vs. Manifestation" issue is a fascinating one -- and I'm jumping the gun here by replying, having only just decided to buy AFL -- on the strength of reading quite a lot on this Forum. Very helpful! And great to know how many intelligent, thoughtful and morally concerned people there are contributing to it.
I can agree with quite a lot of the views already expressed here, but am surprised that no-one has contributed what I've understood -- from quite a few books on manifestation -- is a normal difference between prayer and other manifestation techniques.
Prayer is very often framed as a petition to some power (called God, the Universe or whatever) to deliver what's lacking: in focusing on lack, very often it's not answered. Most manifestation techniques take the opposite tack: of visualising/feeling oneself as already having whatever is wanted, and thanking the power (God/Universe) in advance -- as well as focusing generally on the abundance already in one's life. And, also, not minding if it's not delivered -- as if not, there must be some good reason for it: and more questions to be asked about "why not".
As one writer of many, Stuart Wilde is very good (and very funny) on this. I practised it one day walking along the street with no money in my pockets -- and was amazed at how much there was to be grateful for. It made me feel rich! And happy. And I also realised just how powerful this attitude is -- when there were probably lots of people walking around with money in their pockets and in the bank, noticing nothing around them while obsessing about how poor they were.
In the Bible it says somewhere "Ask and it shall be given" (also the title of a book by Esther and Jerry Hicks). There is nothing new under the sun: but like the a another aphorism, "it's not what you do but the way that you do it" that often counts for most.
There is also a very interesting book called "Symbol Therapy" by Ulli Springett, a Buddhist counsellor and psychotherapist who takes a more constructive view of the function of desire, than non-Buddhists often understand by a Buddhist view of it -- as something simply to be got rid of. But the desire to be rid of desire, is a desire in itself. . .
In these terms, desire is not something "bad", but something natural to any animal that wants to stay alive (let alone reproduce and raise offspring). Given the faculty of reflection, human beings have more complex desires, whose realisation may not always be good for us, or have unexpected and unwanted outcomes. So Ulli Springett's recommendation is always to add "for the benefit of all sentient beings" to the expression of any personal desire -- and to mean it.