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The Story Behind The Levels - (It isn't just to keep you paying for the rest of your life.)

I originally posted this to another thread, but I didn't really want to post there, as Paul had already piped in about the negative nature of the discussion / people trashing each other. I know that these things can be discussed without resorting to that sort of thing. I don't make any money from promoting Centerpoint. I realize that some people feel that the system didn't work for them. Others love it and use it regularly. I speak from my long-term beneficial experience using Holosync, but realize that each person will have their own experience and opinion and I honor that.

I have used Holosync for many years - I was one of their earlier customers, since sometime in 1992. In the beginning you could get Bill himself on the phone when you wanted to talk about the program. I took advantage of this and I also went through the same deal with Bill about wanting to skip up some levels. I had been using a very powerful system of meditation development for some time and I was sure that I could handle the Holosync system just fine. Bill, who was big into TM at the beginning of his development and therefore thinks that TM is probably one of the only things that comes close to Holosync, said I just work with it and let what happens be OK. I wanted to push it more than that - I wasn't feeling overwhelmed by the program - so I insisted, and he DID allow me to skip ahead a bit in the program.

While the Level system does in one way serve to break the program up into nice ongoing chunks of residual income (which, from the standpoint of a business plan is just good business, and Centerpointe is a business) - it is also helping most people to become accustomed to the energy of the system and develop over time. It does take time to grow and develop. Bill insists that he and his fellow experimenters, before the forming of Centerpointe, played around with the system and after they saw the results they were having to holosync they decided to "see what this stuff could really do". So they jacked the thing up as high as it would go and used the lowest carrier signal possible. They used these new recording for a bit - they felt like they experienced spontaneous kundalini awakenings - they were flying high! And then....they all crashed...big time. They went through hell - literally: intense psychological pain, overwhelming overwhelm, breaking out in hives, flu-like illnesses, depression, you name it.

So they stopped listening to those recordings and learned a reasonable sound respect for the power of holosync. When they designed the system - they knew it was powerful and they set it up in a way that would promote strong growth in the practitioners and yet not blow out any fuses in anyone. My understanding is that the highest level of the program is nowhere near the levels of those experimental recordings - they were just too much.

And now, if you will believe this, Bill himself uses the program regularly, and even after all of this time he is still nowhere near the end of the program. He is somewhere in the middle.

So, from my perspective, Centerpointe, which is a business, offers a beneficial product that performs a service, helping people to strengthen their resistance to stress and expand the capabilities of their brain to handle greater input. The Level system helps to protect thier customers and to ensure a beneficial experience with the system, even as it works as part of a sound business plan to ensure the growth of the company.

So, the question is occasionally asked: "What Happens After Holosync?"

I know that there are not even a handful of people who have completed the program, and so this wouldn't be an issue until after many years of working with the system. Holosync begins working quickly, but it isn't a quick fix. Like any other system, it is about regular, persistent, disciplined effort as part of your life practice.







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The human potential field is often criticized for painting in broad strokes and coming to false conclusions from small bits of scientific fact ripped from their original contexts.

The "science" behind holosync isn't really science. The whole brain-wave thing (beta, delta, theta, etc.) has been labeled bogus by people who work in the field of electroencephalography.

I agree that binaural beats have an affect on your consciousness, yes. But the conclusions drawn about "whole brain synchrony" and "brain-wave entrainment" are largely works of fiction. The people coming up with this stuff are not neurologists. They are people interested in selling their products.

People are often sloppy and uncritical in their thinking. They are willing to believe things not because they are true or accurate or have survived the rigors of some logical system, no. They believe because they want to. This is why Centerpointe's advertising is so over the top. People want to believe claims that they can be enlightened by listening to a CD. They want to believe that life will be blissful, if only they pay $100 here and there every so often and then spend an hour a day with their headphones on.

The whole thing about overwhelm is a story. It's an invented work of philosophical fiction. The philosophy of Centerpointe was not created in an environment of scientific inquiry where hypotheses are rigorously tested in experiments, compared with existing knowledge, and subject to criticism and inquiry by peers with expertise in the field.

You may not like the thought, but chances are you are being taken advantage of if you continue to buy Centerpointe's products. They are overpriced. They are based on pseudo-science, scientific facts removed from their contexts, and conjecture presented as verified fact.

You could probably achieve the same results using another technique. It is my guess, but upon rigorous study, you could probably find that what works with the holosync method is fairly simple and has little to do with Centerpointe's explanations.

Just a guess.

Am I being negative? Well, was the child who said the Emperor had no clothes being unpatriotic?

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 28, 2004).]






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Hi Livingsuccess,

I'm curious to what level you're on with h/s?

I was under the impression that Flowering Level 4 was THE highest level available! I remember Bill saying that at a retreat (via CD) that the higher levels have no affect on him anymore.

thanks






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Hi Livingsuccess

Like Watcher I'm a little confused by some of your statements as they seem to contradict what Bill Harris has said publicly about the holosync program.
Your quote:
"And now, if you will believe this, Bill himself uses the program regularly, and even after all of this time he is still nowhere near the end of the program. He is somewhere in the middle."
I have the retreat CD's that Watcher mentions and Bill says quite clearly that he mediates only a few times each year because the top level has no effect on him anymore. How do you know that he is still regularly meditating with binaural beats and that he is only in the "middle of the program"? And what is your source for saying that "there are not even a handful of people who have completed the program". Bill claims something like 90% of people who get to AL3 go through the whole program.

I'm just trying to decide what weighting to give to your statements as the reality is with discussion boards, you don't know anyone from a bar of soap. Are you able to provide some background as to how you know this apparently inside info on CRI and Bill?

Cheers
Phil







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luck phil and watcher - I can understand your confusion at my statements - I find your statements confusing as well.

I will have to go back to the source of some of my statements - Centerpointe Staff - and speak with them to come to some kind of understanding before I respond back to you.

Much of what I said is taken directly from Bill Harris himself - me speaking one-on-one with him on the phone - back in 1992-93. One curious thing about my experience speaking with Bill back then - I have heard some of the recent recording that he has made, and maybe there are some kind of effects on his voice now through the mic system, but he sounded a bit different than that on the phone. He also seems to have mellowed quite a bit - he sounds much more calm and at peace now. I'll be nice and say that he came across as a bit "abbrasive" and irritable.

babayada - I agree with you that it is foolish to take anything someone else says as a proven "given". We shouldn't believe anything that doesn't resonate with our personal experience, though at times we may be asked to entertain an idea that resides outside our normal range of thinking, to help to see things from a different perspective. The things that I currently believe are based upon my own long-term personal experience and experimentation. These are my conclusions and they fit me and I don't ask that anyone take them in place of their own experience or conclusions.

You do hit on an interesting point when you say that the results achieved could probably be achieved in most any other system - and I couldn't agree more. The system is less important than the attitude with which you use it. What matters (in personal development) is that you achieve the proper attitude of commitment and do the regular work of a daily practice.

Another thing related to the above point, is that we need rituals in order to engage ourselves into anything; in order to believe in something, in order for things to have meaning and to "work" for us. That ritual can be related to science or pseudo-science - it doesn't matter which, what matters is the focus of our minds. The medical doctor believes, he KNOWS what to do in certain medical situation. He has his operational rituals which will bring about the needed healing. The psychic healer also has his own rituals, belief and knowledge. He goes through various techniques - very different from the medical doctor - to achieve healing.

I have always found it interesting how some people will say that the healing in the cases is related to a placebo effect. The one seeking healing believes that it will heal and so he is healed. It never ceases to amaze me how the ones writing this off as placebo effect, never seem to notice that a person healing themself with an idea, a "placebo effect" is any less incredible than if it were all related to a power in the healer.

Most people never consider that the placebo effect also works in apparent "hard science" situations, such as medical operations. The doctor completely believes what he does can solve the problem. The patients often have ultimate faith in the doctor to be able to help them. I mean, if you haven't noticed, people who believe in doctors REALLY believe in doctors. It would be interesting to do a study where a set of people who were supposed to get an operation were divided up into a set of groups and one would get the actual operation, one would get put under but would not have anything done to them - they would simply be left in their bed to sleep it off the anesthesia, though you might need to give them an incision scar. Both groups would believe that they had had a successful operation and that everything should be fine.






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Just to add my 2 cents...I have been using holosync for sometime, and find that it has provided what was promised for me. I do think that any growth work (even leaning a skill), you need to develop a "critical mass (cm)" at which point it kicks in. This point is different for everyone. Nothing noteworthy happens, If you stop before you develop this cm, or don't do it offen enough to add. It is like when the doctor says take an antibiotic for 5 consequtive days. If you stop or make up your own schedule, you are on your own.






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You guys can alternatively try Insight CD offered by http://www.awakenedminds.com

Its only around twenty five bucks without shipping, and won't put you through the upheavals that most of you feel when using Holosync while achieving the same result in much less time. Well at lesat for me it did. I tried both products, and now I just use Insight.

Also check out its Focus CD sets. Those are really good, too.






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Hi Livingsuccess,

Several issues with your post. I had the CDs from a Centerpointe retreat, and as mentioned by Lucky Phil, Bill stated that he's been through all the levels and doesn't use it anymore except possibly when he conducts these retreats.

I read the article about them jacking it up as far as it would go and not having a very good experience. However skipping one set of CD's is not equivalent to "jacking it up as far as it will go." What really ticked me off is that they use this "one size fits all" approach. So if I skip a level and find that it's too much I can go back and get the level I skipped.

What if I purchased several levels and didn't and skipped over it, and told them about it. I doubt if they would care. What if I told them that I purchased a level from a 3rd party (without the sublims), my guess is they would want me to purchase it from them.

As I said I liked the program, but don't want to be told that they know better than I do. This may actully be the case, but let me discover it for myself.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't make a profit on their material, just that they are letting greed get the best of them.

I never could get a decent explaination of why they used Delta state, all I've read talks of Theta state being the most useful for meditation.






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I didn't have a good rhythm yesterday to get a call through to Centerpointe. They are a few hours behind me and I had time in the morning when they were closed, so I still haven't been able to straighten out why I was told what I was told by Centerpointe staff regarding:

1. where Bill was in the program,
2. information about his regular practice with the program and what sort of headphones he used to do so.
3. and how many people had been through to the end of the program.

So, I may have recieved bad information regarding those points because they were received, within the last year or so, from a Centerpointe staff member. That information didn't come directly from Bill, though when I spoke to him in 1992-3 he was definitely still using the program based on his statements directly to me, one-on-one over the phone.

Now Centerpointe may have changed it's policy since I was told this, but my understanding is if you buy an Inner Circle membership, which pays for all of the Levels, they still will only send you your current Level to work with and will try to slow down your progress through the system if you keep asking for the next set. I also always found the superior "we know what's best for you", one-size-fits-all attitude of this policy. Really, if you paid for the Inner Circle membership and all they care about is the money, they shouldn't have any problem sending you all of the sets and saying, "here's how we suggest using them - do otherwise at your own risk," but they don't do that.

Now for your last point, Trader, Delta "meditation" is actually a very deep subject, though it is also a much more rare form of meditation. Most people never consciously get to this point in their practice. These predominantly delta brain states are only reached by advanced meditators in certain forms of meditation - I believe samahdi is the phrase used in buddhist meditation practice for this state of consciousness.

Even before I used Holosync, I had experience of this state of consciousness through my own practices. It is possible, and I have personally verified this, that one can remain aware throughout an entire night of sleep - passing into sleep, into and out of various REM, theta, dreaming periods, in between these is the time of delta state (deep sleep), where apparently nothing is happening. However, this is actually a time, if one can be consciously aware in it, of timeless, formless awareness - non-dual awareness. If you can achieve this it will have a profound effect on your consciousness during your waking consciousness.

If you are interested in learning more about these brain states and the consciousness associated with them, check out Ken Wilber, his books and his websites.






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Livingsuccess,

I'm pleased that you clarified what you have
mentioned in your first thread under this topic.
This issue created some confusion because you
were coming up with dated information. (from 92/93)
I too have CD's and heard Bill saying it when I was attending a retreat that he finished the program in the early nineties.
That is in line with the date you have given us now.

I too heard him saying that he only listens to hs on retreats and that is only a couple of times a year.

Furhtermore some years ago I read something written by Bill in which he stated that at times he was considering suicide. Not because
he was depressed but because of physical pain
created by overdoing the hs meditation.

Therefore he suggests not to skip or do more meditation then recommended.

I understand that in the early days there were 4 immersion CD's for each level. Just the dive and one immersion tape.
Even today buying the deeper immersion CD's is still an option an not necessary required.

It would be interesting to know on what level
on the program you are now or were before you
stopped. (and perhaps how many levels you skipped)

Cheers,









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