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#17186 05/14/06 03:11 PM
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Levitateme--let me address some of your questions.

1. What part did I not care for? Certainly it wasn't the price, which is reasonable. I just found it, hmmm...maybe "shallow" is the right word. For the record, I thought the same about What the Bleep. It's "ok" but not a dvd I'll watch over and over.

2. Was I "upset" over people charging for their programs and seminars? Absolutely not. However, I do think that people who soak these up, one after the other, often without a lot of benefit, are missing the point. It's really a far more simple manner. YOU, in fact, touched on it in your paragraph about Autobiography of a Yogi, one of my all time favorite books by the way.

So if people want to spend lots of money and attend endless seminars and classes, that's ok. But the real "secret" is no secret at all. Mystics and seekers have known, and tried to teach it ("you can lead the seeker to water, but...") since time began.

3. Do I think everyone is out there just to grab a buck? No. Actually, I think very few are "in it" just for the money. They seem, for the most part, sincere and do know "some stuff"--it's just that, as mentioned in (2), the way to abundance is not that complicated.

4. Not sure why you brought up the ego--but since you did, I agree with you. Make friends with your ego, it's an important helpmate. But keep a balance. You might find some of the Huna teachings helpful in that regard. There's a nice Huna group on Yahoo that offers a lot of free teaching.

Hope this helps. Remember what Ingrid said: not all criticism is meant to be hurtful. The Secret is fine, especially if it encourages folks to think .








#17187 05/14/06 07:30 PM
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Hey Jeanne,
Thanks for clarifying. I understand your position better now, and agree with you about the tendancy for people to jump from one program to another without fully practicing or absorbing its principles. You do have to choose something and stay with it for it to become integrated into your life. Though sometimes you do have to try on a few suits to find the one that fits best!
Being a graduate of several art programs, I recognize there is a fine line sometimes between honest criticism and snarky cynicism - and I'm not at all referring to either your's or Ingrid's posts. I think perhaps some people had high expectations for the Secret (no doubt because of the marketing hype), and it didn't meet those expectations and therefore they felt let down. I really had no expectations for the production and can see the potential it can have to alter the general public's worldview in a positive way. If it had been released as the worldwide television event it wished to be, I believe it could have reached it's target audience more successfully. Instead, it was marketed primarily to people already familiar with this information, and who therefore may find it less than revolutionary.
And thank you Unis for the Emerald Tablet link. You're right, I got the first paragraph, but the second was a bit arcane, indeed. Interesting though.









#17188 05/14/06 08:20 PM
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Hi Levitateme,
I think you may have misunderstood my earlier comments which is understandable, because we're all obviously coming at this from different angles.

I, like Jeanne, am not focused on money concerns or a lack/abundance of it specifically - as you say money is just another form of energy.

What I suppose I've been trying to highlight is that for me, programmes which preach "abundance" (and the actual cost of them are incidentally irrelevant to the point which I'm trying to make here) but which focus on promoting the fact that abundance equals you "getting what you want" or "controlling your life" etc. are missing the point of what constitutes real abundance - in my view.

You say it's not just about money (of course I agree with you) but rather it's about fulfillment in life and attaining freedom to follow your path. I again agree with you - however I disagree with you on what that actually implies.

I really think that getting what you want (and what you "want" will of course include a desire to finally feel like you are in control of your life, possibly because it might make you feel more secure/safe etc) - athough it may seem like a good idea at the time will not actually bring you any real or long-lasting abundance or freedom.

I'm afraid I'm with the Buddhists on this one - I feel that this "what I want" approach (no matter how altruistic, charitable and righteous your wants may be, by the way) betrays a sense of attachment/desire/neediness/fear avoidance etc. which merely sows the seeds of further suffering/frustration/entrapment etc. in the long term. Every limited, ego-centric element from this arguably holistic view contains the seed of its opposite - hence the design of the Yin/Yang symbol.

By this rationale, therefore, focusing on concepts of wish fulfiliment surely means that you are merely continuing to operate on the mundane and very limited human back-and-forth level of cause/effect, attraction/repulsion, attachment/revulsion etc.. - a dualistic and conflict-inducing state. Of course we are "creating reality" on this conflict-ridden/pleasure-seeking level - it's just that the "reality" we're talking about here is just more separatist illusion.

When you talk about beliefs I also disagree with you on a few points - first of all I don't think that synchronicity happens because of "belief," I think it happens because of a genuine openness to life - which in my mind is the complete opposite of a belief. I see a belief rather as a mindset which you have chosen or learnt or perhaps been indoctrinated into - how can you really be free if you are operating from such a limited perspective? I also don't think that limitation was ever a central component of CG Jung's theory of cosmic consciousness.

Surely "Truth" is beyond a human's limited mindset? (again I am with the Buddhists on this - is belief and ego not just more illusion - keeping us nicely trapped in the cycle of cause and effect? Isn't the well known Zen saying - "If you meet a Buddha on the road, kill him..."?)

Abundance in my view is beyond "me" (which includes my thoughts/beliefs/concepts)- it is limitless, inconceivable and ever-present. To fully realise it in my life, I need to lose or "die unto myself" so to speak - ie. step beyond the ego, or rather come to the realisation that it never existed in the first place (as the Buddhists would believe)- at least not fundamentally. Ego to me represents the root of argument, separation, conflict in the world. It is only beyond the ego that one can realise wholeness, belonging, abundance...

If we don't agree on some of these fundamental premises, that's totally fine too, of course. Perhaps we're representing two sides of another ego argument! (Yippee - as if the world didn't have enough of those already!) There's harmony out there somewhere though - or is it within?...!
Oh to be a butterfly....

lots of love
Ingrid :0)








#17189 05/15/06 01:40 AM
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Hi all,

Since this is such an interesting, deep and profound posting, I thought I would add my two cents...

Without getting into the symantics of the word, abundance, I think the context in which this word is used also needs to be taken into account. I think there are several milestones on the way to Enlightenment, which is what Jeanne and Ingrid seem to be referring to, involving the transcending of the ego. Along the path to enlightenment, one goes through various phases,as described in Siddartha by Herman Hesse. Siddartha first goes through the ascetic stage, when he tries to control his physical realm, by subjecting his body to very harsh conditions including meditating for days and months outside with very little water or food, trying to get past pain. Then he goes through the opposite phase of extreme materialism when he becomes a successful businessman, and even has mistresses to satisfy his material lusts and wants. After a few years of this life style, internally he feels dissatisfied this "good" life is still not it, and then with a more balanced philosophical outlook (having seen both the yin and the yang) he sits under the Bodhgaya tree and achieves Enlightenment.

My point is that not everyone is seeking that ultimate state of enlightenment. Buddha abandoned his family and kingdom in his quest for enlightenement. Most people are seeking happiness, comfort and security in a "normal" human life, which I think the Abundance referred to by these programs will provide.

I look at these programs as being different tools in a "toolbox" from which one can pick a certain tool or technique to solve a certain life need or situation. If one still has a longing for going further along the path, which none of these tools can satisfy, then one may have to transcend these tools and continue.

Just as an aside, most of the enlightened masters, such as J. Krishnamurthi were reputed to have miraculous powers, which they very seldom used or demonstrated since they did not want the fame or power these abilities would give them. In the spiritual plane they had reached, they had no use for these powers!

[This message has been edited by InquiringMind (edited May 14, 2006).]






#17190 05/15/06 04:21 PM
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Thanks Inquiringmind,
I love Hermann Hesse's books, by the way!
I see what you mean about how it's important to understand and take into account what context the concept of "abundance" is taken in.

I suppose at the end of the day (no matter how abstract and "idealistic" an intention), I am more interested in waking up from the dream than making sure that I have a really nice dream. Plus, I'm afraid that the nicer the dream is, the more likely it will be that I will want to stay asleep!

As you say, this is obviously not the ambition of most people (or me either for most of the time to be honest - I am only human after all and do, despite all the spiritual ideals in the world live a "normal" life like everyone else with all its trappings!)

As you say about Krishnamurti, it is ironic that when you attain enlightenment, those very things you originally thought you needed/wanted or aspired for apparently just fall away anyway!

What is it they say?: Be Still and Know.
And here's me nattering away not allowing the Stillness to even get a leg in!!

lots of love
Ingrid :0)






Ingrid #17191 05/21/06 11:04 PM
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Thank you, Ingrid. Other concepts which the Abundance courses teach are the concepts of Prosperity Consciousness vs. Poverty Consciousness (though I do not think they are mentioned in AFL).

Prosperity Consciousness is about appreciating and valuing the abundance and prosperity one has, and Poverty Consciousness involves focusing on the scarcity of resources and lack of abundance (to me, it seems like the glass half full/half empty analogy). The danger with poverty consciousness is that one can almost begin to think that it is "noble" to be poor. To paraphrase what some famous person (whose name escapes me now) said, if you think so and so, then that is right, and if you think its opposite, then that too is right... I think I personally would rather embrace the concept of prosperity than poverty

Another concept I have come across in my study of personal development is the concept of a successful and perceptive malcontent. If a person who has achieved a certain level of success in most of the "normal" human endeavors, such as career, social relationships, social skills, etc, and still feels discontented, and decides to transcend these in the search for awakening, then that person is doing so from a position of power. On the other hand, if a person is deficient or unsuccessful in these basic skills, and decides to give up the "normal" human pursuits, then that person is in danger of doing so for the wrong reasons, ie, to rationalize failure at ordinary life tasks and find an escape from reality, rather than its opposite, to awaken....

As I read somewhere, money as such is neither good or bad. It is the user who makes it one or the other.

Lots of love.






Last edited by InquiringMind; 05/21/06 11:15 PM.
InquiringMind #17192 05/24/06 03:51 AM
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Just a quick update - I got my copy of "The Secret" today in the mail, and I've already watched half of it. For the most part, I like what I've seen, and I believe it is something I can get my (adult) kids to watch, even maybe my older grandson. I had an epiphany about "visualization" while watching today, which may actually now put me in a position to be able to use this material really constructively. I've been studying along these lines for a long time, so much of this is review for me, but I really appreciate the way it has been presented on the DVD.

Cheers!
Unis






hartreefoch #17193 07/03/06 04:28 PM
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Last edited by Sooperman; 07/03/06 04:29 PM.
Sooperman #17194 07/19/06 10:55 PM
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the link dont work!! what gives mama??






Eshu #17195 07/20/06 01:06 AM
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It worked for about 4 days after it was posted here, and then I guess Google decided to take it down, or was ordered to do so - I have a feeling it found it's way there somewhat "serendipitously"

Cheers!
Unis

PS: I've watched it several times now (with friends and with one of my grandsons, age 16) - well worth paying to see it online, if you have high-speed, or even buying the DVD, which is what I did.






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