Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ PhotoReading, Memory Optimizer A simple matter of faith

Brian649 - I can hardly wait to reply.. can't right now.

Soooo, my question is, What does this have to do with Photoreading????????

Originally posted by Brian649:
[b]I became a photosensitive patch of skin somehow. Let's become an eyeball!

I don't know about you, but this makes more sense to me than a 30 year old woman spontaneously *poof*-ing out of nothing from Adam's rib.

Makes more sense to YOU, but again you remove the active element from the picture. Eve didn't poof, she had assistance. Evolutionists believe in poofs: poof I'm a universe from nothingness. Poof, I'm a planet that is the perfect distance from the sun, at the perfect angle, rotating at the perfect speed, while at the perfect distance from the sun. Poof, from non-life I now have life generating material. Poof, from that material I generate a living biological computer far more complex than anything humans can accomplish...

Evolutionary scientists are just trying to make sense of their world. They are theorizing, true, but these theories are based on facts such as fossil evidence, uncanny similarities between disparate animals, environment and its relation to physical structure, and that wonderful stuff of logic that connects the facts to a 'reasonable' theory.

So it is a theory. But it makes more sense than any other theory put forth. For that matter, what is the evidence behind the Judeo-Christian Creation myth?

OK, but that's the most cloying thing. It is theory passed off as fact. Whether you want to admit it or not, both sides take a leap of faith. You can fall back on scientific theory but it's still theory and to accept it at face value, you are taking a leap of faith. You are taking a leap of faith that the observed information was interpreted correctly and that the underlying observations were accurate. Your bias allows you to accept that and since it has a psuedo scientific underpinning, you console yourself that no faith is required. Wrong.

Your stance is that, "there is element of "intelligent work" that is missing and that something is the work of the Christian God." But how do you know? What are the facts? (Besides that 4000 year old book you keep referring to.) What observable "thing" proves the work of God?

The complexity of the world. The relationships between certain animals and certain plants. The tender balance between RNA/DNA that would make one forming first without the other impossible. The fact that we are all encoded in that incredible little strand. You wouldn't accept that sand evolved into microchip, which then evolved its own programming that allows it to generate more chips. As far as the book goes, for centuries, historians laughed at the inaccuracies in that book (kings they didn't think existed, cities they didn't think existed). And yet, so far, each time evidence has been unearthed that supports the Bible version of history. Not incontrovertible evidence, but it is an impressive record. Again, there is the return of Israel to its land as prophesied...

"The eye is complex, therefore God made it," just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. For example, how do you know it was your God and not someone else's? What makes a complex eye a complex christian eye?

I guess what I am asking is... What distinguishes your creation myth from the creation myth of any other religion?

Please answer this last question as specifically as possible.

First off, let all creation "myths" have equal standing with evolution. Let the people who believe the earth was seeded by aliens have equal standing with evolution. All are theories. Yours shouldn't get preeminent standing because it is cloaked in the trappings of science.

As far as the Christian vs. Other gods argument, that's an entirely different argument than creation vs. evolution. I'm not sure we want to get into that here...At some point, LS is going to ask us all to just shut the heck up.

[This message has been edited by slithy toves (edited March 21, 2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by allenhm:
Soooo, my question is, What does this have to do with Photoreading????????

---

Not a thing, but it's more entertaining than telekinesis...

Actually, there is an interesting parallel in thought patterns. There are polarized sides with respect to Photoreading too. Some believe it works. Some believe there is no scientific evidence that it works. Rather than take the experiential approach, they dismiss it out of hand... (OK, it's a stretch)

First and foremost, poking holes in the Theory of Evolution or saying that it "seems unlikely to me" does not *prove* the Christian creation myth.

Please answer this question:
What distinguishes your creation myth from the creation myth of any other religion? (someone is bound to have a clever answer!! Come on guys, show me up.)

I agree with you that the theory of evolution doesn't cover all the bases, but you know, it's the best thing we've got based on the available evidence. And what else can you base a theory on but evidence? Anything else is *purely* a fanciful flight of the imagination.

Given that all things evolve, I have faith the theory of evolution too will evolve when more evidence turns up.

Yes, I believe the world is only about 6,000-10,000 years old. No, I am not saying that the species now are the only one's there have ever been.

I'm sorry, these two sentences don't seem to work together. You're saying there have been many species, BUT no species is older than 10k years??

The 65 millions years date ... wouldn't bet my life on that since it's been proven wrong in many occations.

I think we can safely assume that dinosaurs lived more than 10,000 years ago, don't you? 65, 35, 15, even 1 million years... still greater than 10,000.

Yes, you do in fact grow from the day you are born, but you are dying at the same time.

mmm, define dying. I don't feel as if I am dying. Dying, in my mind, is what happens right before you die. Aging? I would say that entropy, on the whole, is increasing in my system after the age of... 22 or so. As you are growing, from zygote to the cusp of adulthood, would you not say that order is winning out over entropy? And then after your sexual prime, you begin to degrade more than you repair?

The reason Jesus heals is because it is supernatural something the human mind cannot comprehend.

Absolutely wrong. There are any number of healers in myriad cultures that use the laying on of hands to the same effect as Jesus--qigong masters, reiki masters, there are many christian healers as well. Miraculous healings via chi/ki/prana/orgone/bioenergy are universal to all holymen. In fact, you yourself can heal people with Spring Forest Qigong!

Also, minds like Nikola Tesla, William Reich, and Faraday have explored the quasi-electromagentic phenomenon of life energy in a scientific setting. Reich created the "orgone accumulator", a device which accumulates life energy. I own such a device. There's also the "Faraday Cabinet" and Rife Frequencies and all manner of subtle energy devices. It's an interesting "science", Radiology it's called. The science of anti-entropic life energy. Check it out.

If you put a human being in a near perfect enviroment, with near perfect food, and near perfect training sure they'd probably live a little longer. But, not that much. They're still gonna die.

Well, we can't live in a vacuum, but if we could... what would happen? One such study shows the answer: Chicken cells were placed in an environment with perfect oxygen, perfect nutrients, and perfect waste disposal. The cells lasted for 40 some odd years, which is 7 times the lifespan of a normal chicken. They also outlasted the life of the experimenter. The experiment was ended after his death in the assumption that the cells would never die in perfectly ideal conditions. (If anyone is familiar with the details of this experiment I'd actually like to hear a bit more on this as I heard it in an audiobook on longevity a few years ago and never got back to it.)

The man's arm doesn't "adapt" it reacts to an external stimulus the 40 pound weight.

Right... And the color blue isn't blue. It's blue!!

Brian,
Evolution is a Theory which many people hold to as fact. Truth is, the bones scientist have dug up can be anything. It is believed on "evidence" of the scientist and archaeologists. Mainly it take faith in something to believe. The creation story in the Bible also takes faith to believe in. Evolutionists are starting to backtrack and rethink their theory. Brian, evolution states that humans evolved from monkeys and fish. I hate bananas and heights, so the monkey evolving to human is out, As for the fish, its a possibility, I can swim like a fish and my family drinks like fish
Thanks, but I'll hold to what I believe.
When you boil it all down they (evolution and Christianity) both take FAITH to believe in them.

Good Luck,
jonah

Perhaps we should go back to the beginning:

quote:

---

Who here believes in "evolution" and who believes in Creationism. Evolutionist, could you please state why?

---

Evolution, hands down. The more I read, the more it fits what humans have observed.

Creationism only works in one of two ways:

1) You state that the physical description given in the bible is metaphor, and then accept the act of creation as something different, say the big bang.

I don't know why bible-believers don't go this route. It matches both observation and belief.

2) You disregard reams of evidence, and misuse science terms. I'll give only two examples, because these are really complex subjects (like most of science), and I haven't frankly studied enough to give good answers:

a) carbon dating. Despite what's written above, carbon dating works. It's abundantly tested, peer-reviewed, and so forth. Granted, some people perform the procedure incorrectly, but people making mistakes does not disprove a thing. Nor does the occasional situation outside the theory.

b) entropy. Entropy is a very complex statement about CLOSED SYSTEMS. Sorry for the caps, but it's really important to understand this: human beings, and the entire planet for that matter, are not "closed systems": they receive (and give off) energy from (to) the environment around them.

Some of the science discussions here remind me of this silly example of word-play logic:

God is love,
love is blind,
Ray Charles is blind,
Ray Charles is God.

Of course it's quite stupid, but it is logical and matches the overly simplified definitions given.

Same with science: if you keep boiling down difficult concepts like evolution & entropy and then playing with some overly-simplistic concept, you can break that concept. You haven't broken the real thing though. It'll take more work than that.

Last, and jumping to a tangent...

RE: "It's just a theory."

You're right, there aren't any facts (I'm being serious here), just observations, hypotheses (what is the damn plural?) and theories.

However, many of those theories rest upon millions of observations, tests, and other theories which rest upon still more observations, tests, and other theories.

Be careful what you dismiss as "just a theory": soon you're left with nothing but your beliefs, and we're all wrong a lot of the time.

-Jeff

P.S. "Evolution is supposed to be survival of the fittest, instead we have survival of the laziest."

Don't kid yourself, lazy people rule the world. I could easily argue that true success is getting what you want with the least amount of effort. :-)

Jaif, excellent work.

Who here believes in "evolution" and who believes in Creationism ... (evolutionists can email me if you are afraid of being flamed)

The Scopes monkey trial made the US the laughing stock of the world.

--

If I were Christian arguing against me, here is what I would say, "Being Christian is a matter of faith, solely. I cannot prove what I believe. I just know it to be true. Ever just know something? I feel this to be the case with every fibre of my being. It seems illogical and fanciful to you. But it is REAL to me. And that is what matters. What matters? Ultimately, being a good person is what matters. Does a secular, materialist, godless, evolutionist set of beliefs lead one to a more rich and fulfilling life? If not, then perhaps you should re-evaluate *your beliefs*."

That's how I would counter myself.

Just as in the last thread on historical origins, I do not believe that Christianity holds up when held under intense scrutiny, when you ask, "what's the evidence". I do believe that devout Christians, on the whole, are very beautiful people--more caring, loving, nuturing, and selfless than the rest of us. That is a sweeping generalization, I know, but personally--I think it's the truth.

I outwardly criticize the logical absurdity of Christianity and most religions, but secretly... I am envious of the virtues their unconditional beliefs allot them.

"RE: "It's just a theory."

You're right, there aren't any facts (I'm being serious here), just observations,
hypotheses (what is the damn plural?) and theories."

That's is exactly what bothers me with evolution in this society. It is just a theory and there is absolutely no evidence, in the fossil record or anywhere else, that directly supports evolution. It's just an unproven theory. Yet it is presented as absolute fact, in schools, in the media,and in scientific communities. If you question it at all, you're some religious nut. On Discovery channel tonight there was a show about sea snakes, the scientists were commenting on "how well these snakes have adapted to their environment". That statement is NOT consistent with evolution. I adapt to cold weather by wearing a jacket. I know what I want, to be warmer, and I know how to get it, wear a jacket. I have control over it, I adapt. The sea snakes, according to evolution, have NO control, they are at the mercy of completely random mutations that have no set goal. They didn't adapt, they are just lucky that they became the way they are.

Jeff, you bring up the Big Bang. Many Christians take many parts of the Bible as figurative. I for one believe that the Big Bang is quite possible, but it required the intervention of some external force, God. According to science, nothing existed before the Big Bang, not even space, and more recently there is a belief that time started with the bang. So nothing was sitting nowhere and it exploded. How can nothing explode, there was no matter and no energy. I guess I better be more careful at home when I leave nothing laying around the house, it may start a fire. There are some interesting things in Genesis. The first is the mention of the "first day" i.e., the start of time. There are many scientists who are teorizing that time started with the big bang. Also after the earth was created, it sat in darkeness until God said "let there be light' Recent scientific studies of the elemental makeup of the Earth support that it may not have come from the Sun, and possibly is older than the Sun. Does this prove the Bible? No, but is is kinda cool.

Now as for Brian's request;
"What distinguishes your creation myth from the creation myth of any other religion?"

The main thing that distinguishes mine from others is that I believe the Christian view to be true, based on faith.

Michael

OK, I'll risk getting all schmaltzy here, I can say that I was raised in a very non-Christian environment. Not bad, just godless. I always felt this "tug" that there was a God out there (Brian, I bet you've felt that tug once or twice). But you know what convinced me I was right? Watching my wife go through pregnancy. Feeling that kick of life from outside. Seeing and hearing that moment when the baby finally arrives. It is too magical for words and I cannot conceive of that magic being the result of blind chance.