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Hasn't anyone heard of the scandal about Richard Bandler? He went to trial for the murder of his bookkeeper (who was also a prostitute with whom he "hooked up" many of his friends). He was (maybe still is?) a cocaine addict who admitted to witnessing this woman's murder but who said he spent the day and a half after her murder snorting cocaine with one of his two girlfriends and waiting until he had a "clear head" to report the murder to officials. He was acquitted of the murder.

If you believe what you read, however, he is either guilty of the murder or at least guilty of being a coke-head, of hooking his friends up with a prostitute, and of infidelity (at a minimum).

The point of my post is not to trash Richard Bandler, but to point out that, no matter what you think of a person, it is up to you to glean what is useful for your life out of what he or she writes or teaches. Truth be known, I doubt any of us would have great respect for ANYONE who teaches ANY theory that we might find useful. That is because people are people - they come in all shapes and sizes, they have all kinds of different habits, lifestyles, hopes, dreams, etc. Some of them are capable of inspiring us with their words and ideas. Some inspire us with their lives. It is a mistake to emulate someone and hope to be EXACTLY like them. You must learn to take what is useful to you from anything you read, hear, or see, and apply it to your life in the best way possible.

Tony Robbins may have traded in his older wife for a younger "enhanced" model. Or his first wife may have left HIM - and he may have subsequently overcome the difficulty of that rejection and found an even more beautiful person, inside and out. The stories you read in the press and on the internet are not always accurate. Please be aware, I am NOT defending Tony Robbins or justifying anyone's actions. I am merely pointing out that pontificating about whether someone is worthy of having his ideas listened to based on a judgment of his personal life is a mistake. Who cares what a person did or didn't do? Do their ideas speak to you because YOU can do something with them? What is the point of NLP or any other technique? To enhance and advance your life - to make it the best it can be, not to criticize or judge another's life. Keep things in perspective. Quit wasting your time trying to find the Messiah outside of yourself, and look within for the answers.






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I am new to forum. Great post. Although, perhaps not popular hear, I think that is why Jesus Christ is the way.








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How can Jesus Christ be the way when he was just a man? Some might even say Jesus Christ is a fictional character and there is no proof he ever existed.






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I read that Mother Jones article about Richard Bandler, too.

It was pretty intense. I think the words "Daddy, please don't let them kill me" was splattered on the top of it. It's something she wrote in her diary some time before her murder. It goes to show the sensationalism involved in the article and makes me question the journalism....

But it is creepy, and it is important, I think, to know the kinds of people you're dealing with. Bandler was acquitted. Who knows if he really did it or not? What we do know is that he was a user of cocaine and was somehow involved with the crime. Just how is a mystery.

And Bandler did try to claim NLP as his intellectual property and had lawsuits against several trainers for various reasons.

So, yeah, he has several skeletons in his closets. Why not bring it up? Well, you did, and I'm glad.

It doesn't mean, however, that NLP is bad. There are several teachers and practitioners who are not cocaine addicted or have any involvement with murders.

If someone chose not to support Bandler in any way because of his past, I think that that would be a fair judgement.








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Regarding the Bandler issue, in the opinion of my first NLP trainer he did it or helped do it. He told our class not to put people on pedestals and that we can use the skills without being like those who develop them if they are not good role-models.

IMO that applies to more than just NLP. I have a few videos of martial arts instructors who are very skilled but from my own experience and the experience of others I know these two guys are real jerks with almost cult-leader like attitudes. That doesn't mean the skills they teach are not valid and that I won't use the videos to train with. It does mean I won't train with them in person or recommend them to anyone else.

Like in anything, take what is useful and discard the rest.






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IMO Tony's personal life is of little importance to the value of his products, except possibly the material he has on relationships. Even then, his advice is not necessarily bad, it might just not work well all the time or he might not have followed it himself.

It seems to be popular to slam people in NLP and similar for not practicing what they preach, and to an extent that may be a valid position. I don't see people saying that conventional medicine doesn't work because there are medical doctors who are obese, diabetic, alcoholic, smokers, etc. I worked with a doctor (not using NLP, it was at my job and I had to give him nutritional advice) who was obese and diabetic. I told him what he needed to eat and what foods to avoid but he insisted on eating food he knew would make his condition worse. I'm sure he's a good doctor for his patients, he just doesn't apply it to himself. That doesn't mean modern medicine is not valid, just that people are flawed.






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I'd like to add that IMO some of Tony's products are a good introduction to NLP and he should be credited to popularizing the field. He's primarily a motivator rather than a trainer. There are a lot of people teaching NLP that you can learn much more from. His NLP skills are not really something I would model but considering how big his business is his business skills would be something worth modeling.

I actually modeled him once at a seminar. One method to model people in a seminar setting is to match their micro muscular movements as you would if you are establishing rapport. During the exercise where we are supposed to influence someone I successfully demonstrated his somewhat hyperactive speaking style like it was "normal" for me. It was an interesting experience but I haven't found a use for the behavior since the seminar.

You can try that skill with any speaker, teacher, or video of a seminar. Keep in mind that you'll be modeling the behaviors demonstrated, not necessarily other things about the person though it is possible that you will pick up other things.

[This message has been edited by Dosetsu (edited April 04, 2005).]






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Tony, in his own way, can be very good with rapport.

He demonstrated matching my behavior patterns and widened the scope, lets say, of what can be mirrored for rapport purposes. That is, I had spoken to him and started to walk away, but then stopped and came back and told him something else. During his reply, he mirrored this behavior ... acting as if he were going on one course, reconsidering, and then going on another. It seemed quite natural at the time and only later did I realize that he had mirrored me.

So, yes, Tony is due credit where credit is due.

Criticizing Tony for not practicing what he preaches IS appropriate, because he preaches practicing what you preach.

Of course, some people agree with the sentiment, as J. R. Bobb Dobbs put it, "I don't practice what I preach because I am not the kind of person that I am preaching to!" Tony, however, makes it clear that what he says comes from personal power ... which is supposedly coming from integrity and congruence.

I am surprised that more people aren't critical of Tony in this regard.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited April 04, 2005).]






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I like babayada's statement:

"Criticizing Tony for not practicing what he preaches IS appropriate, because he preaches practicing what you preach."

This is a valid point! One of the points in my post, though, was: do we really know what happened with Tony's first marriage? What if Becky was the one who wanted out, and what if he did everything in his "personal power" to make her stay and she still left?

I have no idea what happened with Tony's and Becky's marriage, but I do have a friend whose sister is the personal assistant to Tony and Sage, and she says that Tony is everything he appears to be and says he is. She also says that Sage is wonderful. Now, I'm not suggesting that we should blindly listen to my friend's sister - that's just a tidbit thrown in there to show that at least one person who has regular contact with Tony and Sage thinks they are "the real deal". Honestly, I could go either way: believing that Tony got sick of Becky and traded her in for a shiny new model, or believing that she was too intellectual for him and got sick of his entire personality. Either one is completely possible in my opinion.

But what I'm really saying is that we DO NOT KNOW what happened with his marriage and, not knowing what happened, how can we judge whether he is practicing what he preaches? He doesn't say that, using NLP, you can control the actions of those around you and make them stay with you and love you no matter what happens. So, what if Becky got sick of him? It could happen! She might have dumped him, and he might have used all of his resources to make the best out of that situation and seek out a mate who is better suited to him. Really, this is all speculation. As I said when I opened this post, I really do like and agree with the point that, if someone says they practice what they preach, they should! But, as a closing note, I will add that Tony says often that his methods don't promise a perfect life, without problems or obstacles. That isn't the point of what he teaches. The point is that, no matter what happens, you don't throw up your hands in defeat and say, "I'm done, I can't handle this!" but that you develop strategies for overcoming your difficulties and continually growing and becoming better. In that respect, he very well may be practicing what he preaches.








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I dont think we should be hard on anyone....people change in 15 years......well Tonny comes out as the master of change in his books how can he ver fail to handle a changing wife...what about those talks about creating an adventorous, legendary relationship???? one things is clear...Tonny's love of humanity helps him excel in his business and business is all that he is into...to make it happen he has to show that he is perfect because motivational speakers cannot be just motivational speakers...they have to be rich...perfect....and all that

Tonny is human...he gets angry...he goes to toilet like everybody else...and he does get fed up....only this time he had to get out of the motivational speaking act to the real world and divorce

quote:
Originally posted by AlanHilton:
Babayada ...

I've enjoyed alot of your posts but something in this thread made me want to respond by "chunking down" on your posting.

Let's examine your statement "Balance like getting rid of a wife because she's getting older and exchanging her for a younger model with fake boobs that you paid for?"

Let's apply some inquery process (since you have Abundance for Life) and some NLPish questioning.

"Getting rid of a wife because she's older."

Can you know that it is true? How do you know this is the reason that they divorced? Did you read an interview, talk to Tony or Becky, or is it just something you made up in your own head? (called hallucination in NLP)

Becky and Tony divorced after 15 years. That's a pretty long time. People change in 15 years. Are you married or single?

"exchanging her for a younger model"

Since you are much more up on the gossip than I am (I did not even know Tony was divorced and remarried until I read your post) what was the period of time that passed between divorce and the subsequent marriage?

Was it too short for your internal timetable? What would have been an appropriate length of time to wait before seeing someone else so it would have been ok with you? How old should his new wife have been so as not to seem like he was trading in on a newer model?

"with fake boobs that you paid for"

Wow, you really are up on the details. You even know whether she had a boob job or not and who paid for them. Sage's ex-husband claims he paid for them (google searched this morning). How do you you know who paid for them? Have you seen the receipt? What bothers you the most, that she had a boob job (did she really?) or that you think Tony paid for them? Would it have been okay with you if she used her own money?

***************

NYC_Dweller ...

There is a lot of NLP material out there. Start a thread asking for who has specific recommendations and you'll get some answers.

In answer to your specific question - I think Awaken the Giant Within is worth your time and money. I'd also recommend the "Unleash the Power Within" weekend with the firewalk if you have the resources. It is not too expensive and, like I said, a worthwhile experience.









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