Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Beyond Human Anthony Robbin's Products?

Are there any opinions on Anthony Robbin's products? Which ones do you highly recommend?

While I got my introduction to NLP through Anthony Robbins, I don't care to recommend anything by him.

He is good at motivating people, but a lot of what he says is empty rhetoric. For instance, a pattern of his is to raise a bunch of emotional energy through talking about something of concern and getting the listener to imagine a great solution. He then talks about a technique that does not necessarily have anything to do with resolving the kind of problem he addresses.

He takes a lot of good ideas from people who are good at thinking, but he is not such a good thinker himself. He's a good motivator and a good marketer, that's all.

I'd recommend looking into material and seminars by the people who taught him. John Grinder and Richard Bandler still do seminars, and there is a whole load of material available on NLP.

And if you want to read about the people who inspired Bandler and Grinder, then look at Gregory Bateson, Virginia Satir, and Milton Erickson.

The places I've been to for NLP seminars have been NLP Comprehensive and NLP University. NLP Comp. is more hands on and professional. NLP U. is more academic. Both have something unique to offer. I'd suggest NLP Comprehensive to a first timer.

Babayada, what products do you recommend by John Grinder and Richard Bandler? I'm not really into attending seminars and prefer products I can work with from the comfort of my home.

What sort of products do you want?

There are books, seminars on CD/tape, hypnosis tapes....

Richard Bandler has a truck load availabe at purenlp.com.

John Grinder has a number of books co-authored with Bandler available through amazon.com. Seminars and what not in audio are availabe at http://www.metamodels.com/maps/psychology,nlptapes.html#G&A

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 22, 2004).]

NYC_Dweller,

Fellow New Yawker here. For hands on NLP skills that you can use in the real world and not just in a therapeutic setting, I HIGHLY, HIGHLY RECOMMEND Tom Vizzini's Essential Skills videos. For more info, check out: www.essential-skills.com

Hope this helps,

Web

Not to leave us totally putting down on TR - I found that his Personal Power series was very helpful (and motivating) and it probably gives you most of what can be gained from his products, if you had to only have one.

You could get a cheaper copy of the set through eBay, especially if you like working with audiotapes. But there are also deals on the CD version there.

It is also possible to find this set at some public libraries.

I have the audio sets "Unlimited Power" and "Personal Power" as well as the books "Unlimited Power" and "Awaken the Giant Within." Tony's best products he has are the "Unlimited Power" book and 6-tape audio set. "Personal Power" is full of fluff IMO.

I'll second the Essential-Skills products and training by Tom and Kim. They are the best I've seen in teaching how to anchor other people in non-therapy situations.

Another good source is Ross Jeffries. Even if you have no interest at all in seduction his material for personal change and communications if far ahead of what Tony teaches.

For learning therapy from what I've heard NLP Comprehensive is one of the best sources. They also have a book and audio series in the introductory/general success catagory, "NLP: The New Technology of Achievement."

Re: essential skills

I'd also recommend getting on the nlp newsgroups and reading the kinds of immature, self-adulating, and castigating posts Tom Vizzini makes before shelling out any money for his products.

Out of curiosity I bought a set of essential skills CDs. Disappointment galore. My advice: don't waste your money.

The generalization that NLP Comprehensive and other places only teach you how to use NLP in a therapeutic context is inaccurate. Even when the skills are taught within the context of therapy, anyone with half a brain can generalize them easily into other contexts. However, NLP Comprehensive teaches NLP techniques with regard to many contexts, and they do it extremely well. I have been to quite a few educational facilities, the education at NLP Comp was the best educational experience I've had in my life.

At the risk of being snotty, I have to say that the essential skills crew and Ross Jeffries are slimy and sleazy. Of the two I prefer Jeffries. He can actually teach some good stuff, even though it is oversimplified and cheesy at times.

If you guys want the non-therapeutic, fun approach why not go to Bandler for it? I mean, these other guys are just cheap imitations when you get down to it.

You put any of them next to Bandler and, well, what you have is a nuclear bomb among some firecrackers. The choice is pretty clear.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 22, 2004).]

I do not care for Anothy Robbins products. I have tried them and they seem to be alot of hype. His products were my first experience with self-help and NLP, so it was fun and exciting at first, but looking back, I spent alot of money on his tape sets and got very little out of them. It does seem that there are people who are helped with his products, so they are not useless.

I was also turned off when I found out about Robbins' divorce. He was always big on relationships in his tape sets and when I heard what happenned, it was a complete turn off.

I also like Bandler's Personal Enhancement Series. The wealth tape did little for me, but the tapes are very entertaining and I feel better after listening to them. If you want to learn more about NLP, you could also visit: www.nlpanchorpoint.com

If that was in response to what I said about NLP Comprehensive then you misunderstood my point. From what I've seen they are probably the best around for learning therapy and I plan to train with them someday. Sure, they teach other applications but IMO if you want to do therapy you should seriously consider training with them. As I said, for general success "NLP: The New Technology of Achievement" is a good book or audio set. IMO while nowhere near as exciting as "Ulimited Power" I learned a far more from it and found it much more useful.

Personally I don't care about how Tom or Ross act on alt.psychology.nlp. I don't read that forum and from what I heard at least for Ross creating contraversy is part of his marketing. I have some their products and they are good for what they are designed for. I'll also add Kenrick Cleveland to the list. These are good sources to learn NLP for persuasion and other applications for non-therapists. Therapists would require additional training IMO. IMO NLP Comprehensive is in a different market and is not really in competition with Tony, Tom, or Ross.

I was responding to what you and webcrawler wrote.

It looked from the information being presented that a "NLP Comp is only good for therapists" meme was amalgamating, and I wanted to break it up. I know nothing as to the intentions and experiences of either of you.

As for persuasion, why not recommend Bandler? Years ago, I attended Bandler's Patterns of Persuasion seminar. Frankly, after attending a persuasion seminar by Bandler, you could come up with your own speed seduction techniques. After all, it's what Ross did, didn't he?

BTW, from personal experience, the New Technology of Achievement does not do the NLP Comp team justice. They are simply amazing. Especially Gerry Schmidt.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 22, 2004).]

I'm mainly discussing products and not training, and from what I have seen the products I've recommended are the best for persuasion and general use for people who don't want to become NLP Practitioners.

As for Bandler, from my experiences with his products on persuasion not much is taught consciously and I prefer explict models. Unconscious installation is is fine but in addition to conscious instruction. IMO his newer materials (after "Time For a Change") are more useful for experienced practitioners. I won't go further into the "conscious vs unconscious learning" debate since that is an old issue in NLP and we won't resolve it here.

I recommended "NLP: The New Technology of Achievement" as an introductory course for general use as an alternative to Tony's products. From my experience they teach far more than Tony does. Of course Practitoner Training would be much more comprehensive but that is another topic.

I buy products from almost everyone in NLP, at least the big names, but I also realize that most people are not into this enough to go that far.

I prefer a mix, personally, of unconscious and explicit training.

In the case of someone new to NLP, I'd recommend buying Using Your Brain for a Change and maybe Frogs into Princes. Then get a nice introductory tape set. Your recommendation of the New Tech of Achievement is good.

I'd then, if still interested, pursue advanced stuff. Bandler seminars on tape are good. Hypnosis in Munich is awesome. Someone who has played around with the techniques will be sensitized enough, I think, to what NLP is all about to pick up on a lot of the finer details, at least with multiple listenings. There is enough explicit stuff in most of Bandler's material to keep you occupied.

Then, if still interested, go to a training. There is no replacing hands-on, person-to-person training.

There is a great deal to NLP. So many different teachers, so many flavors of it. Grinder's approach is so different from Bandler's. Then you have Dilts and Delozier ... and even Tony Robbins.

It's important for an individual to know that the experience of what NLP is will be greatly influenced by who is doing the training. I disagree with some of the recommendations here, but the long and short of it is personal preference and learning style.

Good luck, NYC_Dweller. If you have the time and money, check out as many different people as you can.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 23, 2004).]

babayada,
I was interested in checking out some of the Essential Skills cds, but apparently they've now moved on to entirely vhs. Despite your warnings, I'm still interested in finding out what they're like. So, if you'd like to get rid of the ones you bought, please drop me a line. My yahoo email name is the same as my username here (I'm sure you can figure that out).
By the way, I agree with you that Bandler (especially the earlier stuff like Frogs Into Princes and Trance-Formations) is the best out there. Still, I'll have to say that Jeffries does a good job making the transition to covert work very easy, as he's tremendously explicit about what's going on. Someone with a good background in real NLP, however, will have no problem making his stuff _far_ more effective, not just in seduction, but in life.

Anyone familiar with NLP expert David Barron at changework.com. For those that have purchased his products how would you rate them?

I'm amazed that nobody has mentioned Napoleon Hill and his book "Think and Grow Rich." Every concrete concept outlined in by everyone from Anthony Robbins to Zig Zigler can be found with the pages of this amazing book.

On the note of AR, I've listened to Personal Power II, and have read The Giant Within and agree that Tony is great at motivating. However, if you follow his instructions to the letter, (yes, you need to excercize too- this is KEY), chances are you will benefit from a good portion of what he teaches. I suggest going on a 30 day NLP/NAC binge listening to Robbins' PPII, read Hill's book, get audio tapes from Zigler, Brian Tracy, Napoleon Hill (the science of personal achievement - 20 tape set - check your library). Find the common thread in them all, and use what you can from each.

Oh, and most of this stuff can be found in your local library. I have not spent $1 on anything except a copy of "How to think and grow Rich," and only because I wanted to own it myself! Also, remember, if you are a skeptic and are looking for faults, you most certainly will find them. Remember that these are human beings we're talking about.

Visualization is the key element in everthing you do, positive or negative. Learn to master it, and you'll lead yourself

NYC_Dweller ...

Try and pick up the "Awaken the Giant Within" book. The personal power tapes/cds are good too.

If you have a chance to go to a live event, please consider it. Do a firewalk event. It will be something you remember for the rest of your life. And I'll bet that won't be the most amazing thing you do that seminar.

Tony's stuff has changed over the years. The earlier stuff had a lot more sales, go-get-em-tiger stuff. The later material talks more about balance.

Balance like getting rid of a wife because she's getting older and exchanging her for a younger model with fake boobs that you paid for?

I've lost all respect I had for Tony Robbins.

I read his books and even attended his Mastery seminar. I had some good experiences, but, really, what I got out of him was an introduction to NLP that made me want to pursue better material. I would trade 100 Robbins seminars for a few days of NLP Comprehensive.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited January 15, 2005).]

Alright Tony! I bet she's glad have a relief and time off.

Yes, it might have been a good thing for her.

At the Mastery seminar, Tony was talking about reasonable tips for time management, like having a servant take note of the times Tony uses the car so he could have, you know, the car started before hand, so he didn't have to waste time finding which pocket he had the keys in, take them out, and turn the key in the ignition. It's things like that that save the precious moments in our lives and allow us time to really stop and smell the roses.

I'm sure she got a very nice retirement check.

If he wanted a servant to note the times and start his car I guess that wasn't a rose he liked to smell or he was grasping for a new concept in time management.

Babayada ...

I've enjoyed alot of your posts but something in this thread made me want to respond by "chunking down" on your posting.

Let's examine your statement "Balance like getting rid of a wife because she's getting older and exchanging her for a younger model with fake boobs that you paid for?"

Let's apply some inquery process (since you have Abundance for Life) and some NLPish questioning.

"Getting rid of a wife because she's older."

Can you know that it is true? How do you know this is the reason that they divorced? Did you read an interview, talk to Tony or Becky, or is it just something you made up in your own head? (called hallucination in NLP)

Becky and Tony divorced after 15 years. That's a pretty long time. People change in 15 years. Are you married or single?

"exchanging her for a younger model"

Since you are much more up on the gossip than I am (I did not even know Tony was divorced and remarried until I read your post) what was the period of time that passed between divorce and the subsequent marriage?

Was it too short for your internal timetable? What would have been an appropriate length of time to wait before seeing someone else so it would have been ok with you? How old should his new wife have been so as not to seem like he was trading in on a newer model?

"with fake boobs that you paid for"

Wow, you really are up on the details. You even know whether she had a boob job or not and who paid for them. Sage's ex-husband claims he paid for them (google searched this morning). How do you you know who paid for them? Have you seen the receipt? What bothers you the most, that she had a boob job (did she really?) or that you think Tony paid for them? Would it have been okay with you if she used her own money?

***************

NYC_Dweller ...

There is a lot of NLP material out there. Start a thread asking for who has specific recommendations and you'll get some answers.

In answer to your specific question - I think Awaken the Giant Within is worth your time and money. I'd also recommend the "Unleash the Power Within" weekend with the firewalk if you have the resources. It is not too expensive and, like I said, a worthwhile experience.

Some things speak for themselves, Alan.

You are free to come to your own conclusions.

For me, Tony's behavior is typical and hypocritical. For someone who would go on and on about commitment and being able to solve any problem in relationships, well ... you can do your own math.

Anyway, nice attempt at meta-modeling.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited January 18, 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by babayada:
[b]Anyway, nice attempt at meta-modeling.

b]

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I thought his characterization of your reasoning in that post was accurate, which is perhaps evidenced by the fact that you didn't respond to it specifically in this post....

Although I agree with you that there are much better teachers of NLP out there.

[This message has been edited by garics (edited January 18, 2005).]

Garics,

Your are welcome to your opinions as to any characterization of my reasoning. Though I don't know if it will lead to an accurate assessment of Tony Robbins.

As I see it, the only thing my last post evidences is that I don't feel that I need to explain myself by answering a barrage of questions.

Go google it and look at the sordid details of the whole affair for yourselves. It will answer a number of the questions asked.

If Tony Robbins represents what you want to model in your life, then you best take a good look at him. In my estimation, he is extremely opportunistic. He is about one thing in his rhetoric and about another in his behavior. This, to me, is particularly signficant because he goes on and on about congruence and walking your talk.

He stands on the shoulders of giants and puts his name on their work at worst or neglects to mention them. People talk about "Tony's techniques" when they are actually referring to work by Richard Bandler, Robert Dilts, John Grinder, Milton Erickson, et al.

He may be a savvy businessman, but he is no intellectual. Many of his ideas are simply marketed re-workings of things that are actually much more sophisticated, powerful, subtle, and nuanced in their original forms.

If, however, you find his life and actions to represent something different than I do, then you see a different Robbins. I do not feel it's my responsibility to go in depth and explicate and deconstruct my perception of him for anyone.

Go to one or a few of his seminars, sense his energy, look at the facts of his life, and come to your own conclusions. Your results will be stronger for you than anything I can say here.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited January 18, 2005).]

Babathrowingawrenchinyourturbineyada;

You are most adapt at sewing the seeds of uncertainty.

I won't throw a wrench in anyone's turbine, but I will say something like. "Hey, do you hear that? That clicking? There it is again! You might want to have that checked."

quote:

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Originally posted by babayada:
Garics,

Your are welcome to your opinions as to any characterization of my reasoning. Though I don't know if it will lead to an accurate assessment of Tony Robbins.

As I see it, the only thing my last post evidences is that I don't feel that I need to explain myself by answering a barrage of questions.

If Tony Robbins represents what you want to model in your life, then you best take a good look at him. In my estimation, he is extremely opportunistic. He is about one thing in his rhetoric and about another in his behavior. This, to me, is particularly signficant because he goes on and on about congruence and walking your talk.

He stands on the shoulders of giants and puts his name on their work at worst or neglects to mention them. People talk about "Tony's techniques" when they are actually referring to work by Richard Bandler, Robert Dilts, John Grinder, Milton Erickson, et al.

He may be a savvy businessman, but he is no intellectual. Many of his ideas are simply marketed re-workings of things that are actually much more sophisticated, powerful, subtle, and nuanced in their original forms.

If, however, you find his life and actions to represent something different than I do, then you see a different Robbins. I do not feel it's my responsibility to go in depth and explicate and deconstruct my perception of him for anyone.

Go to one or a few of his seminars, sense his energy, look at the facts of his life, and come to your own conclusions. Your results will be stronger for you than anything I can say here.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited January 18, 2005).]

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I failed to acknowledge in the last post that I actually agree with a lot of your sentiments about TR. You are definitely right that he's not an intellectual, he doesn't seem to have a very sophisticated understanding (unlike Bandler) of the underlying theory if the methods he uses.

Also, yes, he's full of a lot of hype much of which he can't back up. I think his strategic positivity is part of what attracts lots of people to him though.

Anyway, I guess I was just trying to say that a lot of your critique made sense to me but the very last part sounded a little bit like a personal attack, and I was trying to make a distinction between those two Sorry if this wasn't clearer.

BTW my name's Garic not Garics

[This message has been edited by garics (edited January 18, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by garics (edited January 18, 2005).]

Sorry for the mistake with your name.

It was not an intentional form of disrespect. My apologies.

My post was, however, intended as personal against Robbins. If you meant personal against Alan, then, I suppose I was being snippy in response to the meta-modeling. Meta-modeling is inherently obnoxious.

quote:

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Originally posted by babayada:
Sorry for the mistake with your name.

It was not an intentional form of disrespect. My apologies.

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I was just introducing myself, I wasn't taking offense.

So you are not liking Tony Robbins because he has a new wife with big boobs? Is that the click in the turbine we should be checking out?

I think you are letting your underlying belief and value system get in the way of doing something constructive.

Is it? How?

Well before the events under discussion I began seeing Tony in a different light. It was a while after I attended the Mastery seminar. During that time, several things became apparent.

After Robbins, I became curious about where he learned all that stuff and started eating up all the NLP I could get my hands on and went to a number of seminars.

Tony is good for making a big noise and getting people introduced to NLP. A lot of people graduate beyond him to other things.

As for being constructive in this conversation: take a look at Tony if you want, but there is much more and better out there.

It was interesting for me to hear from Stephen Gilligan that Milton Erickson had his reservations about Grinder and Bandler's approach. Gilligan gave NLP quite a scathing critique at the NLP Master Practitioner I attended. I found it incredibly stimulating. As a result I moved away from NLP and towards all sorts of other interesting directions.

Now I sort of balance on the fence between approaches. I see NLP as useful, but not the end all be all I used to believe it was.

*shrug*

I think pointing out some of Tony's obvious flaws might save some people the time and disappointment. Just go to the source and cut out the middle-man. I feel that this is a constructive thing.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited January 20, 2005).]

Babayada;

The point was that you brought Tony's personal life into the equation not that you brought up a better approach or something that would save someone time in their journey.

There are alot of musicians that I can't tolerate how they live their life but I do enjoy the music they play.

I have never read a Tony Robbins book or any of his work. I'm not being compensated for this either.

Even though there are better things, sometimes it is a graduating process for people that lays alot of ground work so that they can move onto higher levels. You wouldn't throw a first grader into a calculus class. You yourself went through a long education process to be where you are now and base it on alot of experience.

I think bringing the personal life into this was a mudslinging thing, irregardless if he is a public person.

Jeff

Babayada;

Another thing I would like to discuss is how you treat this experience you had with Tony Robbins. You probably went there with high expectations but no real specific goals in mind. It primed the pump for you and you became thristy for more. You now have enough expeience behind you, that you could look back and see what has become a priceless tool for you, learned at Tony's retreat, and
discard the rest. This would be the wisest thing to do and not waste any more energy on what didn't work. This helps you in life and on your path of self developement.

In many ways you become a Senior Classman to advise others on how they should proceed. You can do this with a helpful attitude or you can act like a bully, I'm sure you remember some of them from high school.

When I started the self development thing I was in the Navy taking care of a boiler room 16 to 18 hours a day feeling very fatigued. A friend of mine was in Scientology and talked to me about past lives, thinking I might get a handle on things if I could remember what I was doing here I signed up in about 1975.
This led me down a path that was pretty tough but not as bad as steaming boilers for the Navy. I ended up working for L Ron Hubbard as a Commodores Messenger. I left after he "dropped his body". It was a pretty messy departure but I knew it wasn't my path.
For many years I mentally wrestled with this and really didn't have many nice things to say about it because of the way I had been treated.

It wasn't until many years later when I was into daily meditation, practicing Aikido and looking at the value of just Being that I learned the value of a Teacher. Although there was alot in that past experience that I didn't agree with, there were several gold nuggets that are still workable for me today. They survived the "Hammer Test" and for that I had to give thanks to L Ron Hubbard and what he had built. When I did this all the other stuff fell away. I do not plan on ever going back there but I take with me these few valuable lessons to build on.

Tony Robbins gave you something to inspire you to search for more and you went out and you found what you were looking for. Before you met him I'm sure you didn't have a plan, after you left you developed one. Honestly, you might want to thank him for doing that.

No one has all the answers for you. You are the one that has to put together your own mosaic of life.

All the Best (really)

Jeff

I should think paying Tony Robbins fees is ample thanks.LOL

quote:

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Originally posted by NickR:
I should think paying Tony Robbins fees is ample thanks.LOL

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Well almost every product discussed here has a price attached to it so you could really say the same thing about any other product too, you know??

But seriously, thanks for an off-beat and uninspired response to an inspiring post by jeffendr. It's contributions like that we need more of here.

Jeff,

Point taken.

Thank you

Kudos Jeff, you are the man!

I agree with the general opinion: Tony Robbins is a good motivator, but he sure doesn't know how to teach solid NLP techniques.

For true problem solving, I recommend Dr. Michael Hall and Rev. Bobby Boddenheimer, both of www.neurosemantics.com

quote:

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Originally posted by HSteinfeld:
I agree with the general opinion: Tony Robbins is a good motivator, but he sure doesn't know how to teach solid NLP techniques.

For true problem solving, I recommend Dr. Michael Hall and Rev. Bobby Boddenheimer, both of www.neurosemantics.com

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Tony Robbins made the smart decision to depart from the NLP crowd, even though he masterered and applied many NLP tecbiques in his products and serveice. That separates him from other NLP-ers. NLP is all about getting the results, not about the forms, originalities, theories; to that end, Tony Robbins did the right thing and the outcome is that he is the most successful individul on earth who profits from NLP.

I do also agree that Tony Robbins is good in motivating people but he doesn't give them tools to getting the results. His goal was to motivate people and made himself rich, and accordingly he is recognized as a great motivator, and only a motivator. I rather go to a good teacher who is result oriented and take pride in seeing his puples achieving the intended results in their lives.

peace and love to all.

When you say:

NLP is all about getting the results, not about the forms, originalities, theories

What exactly do you mean?

I agree that NLP is about getting results, of course. But not about the forms, originalities, theories?

NLP started as a process of modeling. This process yielded several patterns that had been modeled after examples of excellence in human behavior. Many people equate NLP with the patterns NLP generated, but at heart NLP is a method of modeling and reproducing excellence.

I do not know what you mean by forms and originalities, but NLP is very much about the spirit of the people from whom the patterns originated. There is a lot of the spirit of Bandler and/or Grinder in those who teach it. There is a lot of Milton Erickson, Virginia Satir, and Gregory Bateson. NLP is very much about form in the sense that it emphasizes form over content.

Honestly, your post does not make much sense to me.

As far as Tony's movement away from NLP: 1) The movement was a financial decision, I think, during a time when there was a lot of dispute over NLP being intellectual property, and 2) he still incorporates a hell of a lot of it in what he does.

Tony's financial success does not come from moving away from NLP, it comes from him being a shrewd businessman. He knows how to reach people, he knows how to tell them what they want to hear.

Many people who are into NLP are very much NOT into the status quo. This can make them somewhat unpopular. Tony is all about the status quo. He's all about materialism. He's all about your desire to look like a model. He's all about helping you make yourself into what society tells you you should be. Really. That's why he's so popular. He knows how to ride on the waves of consensus while making people feel he's all about their individuality.

That's my estimate, anyway.

Babayada,

Thanks for your comments. When I wrote orms, originalities, theories, I meant status quo. Here we split the opinion: I believe Tony departed from NLP status quo, he combines NLP techniques with other techniques to accomplish the results he wants, without conforming himself to the purity and status quo of NLP or other doctrins. I am not judging the morality of his business practice, I neither condeem nor support his practice, he accomplished great financial success, that makes other NLP-ers unhappy and made him the target of criticism, that's to be expected. What impresses me is his ability to take what he needs from NLP, without overly conrcerned about the forms,originalities, theories and other status quo, to help him accomplish his goals, and he have shown to the world that he has the great results!

You think that "Many people who are into NLP are very much NOT into the status quo.", that's fine with me; you meantioned NLP modeling, patterns, proccesses, spirit, and many big names associated with it, to me, these are forms, these are status quo's, and my personal belief is that NLP hould not be these "mean", but rather, it should be more about the "ends", the results!

I appreciate that you have a different view than mine, and your pointing out that my post didn't make seens to you, that's a good thing. If we all have the same view about everything, there is no need for a "discussion forum" like this one.

peace and love to all.

Ok, now I see what you mean.

I agree that there is an NLP status quo of sorts.

There are also a lot of people who have taken NLP and diverged from it. Not so many NLP purists exist as they used to. People will typically take from this, take from that, and come up with their own way of doing things.

quote:

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Originally posted by babayada:

There are also a lot of people who have taken NLP and diverged from it. Not so many NLP purists exist as they used to. People will typically take from this, take from that, and come up with their own way of doing things.

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there you go! Just take a look at Paul Scheele and LSC products here, the core is NLP (my personal opinion only, Paul might not agree), but they are unique in their own class.

I find that all guru's are disapointing when met face to face.(Obvious generalization on my part.) I'm sure Mr. Bandler has many flaws. Nowadays NLP is considered alternative psychology,but most mainstream shrinks have used it. It may even be called pseudo-science. So is EFT TFT and most of David Hawkin's theories. But they work. In Frog's into Prince's B & G said NLP was a pack of lies, but if you act as if you believe it it(NLP) will work as well as or even better than most traditional therapies. So again it's the message that's important, not the messenger's flaws and ideosyncracies. So thanx Richard, John,Tony, Bob,Judith,etc.and Leslie too.

Well, now, I have to disagree here.

In some instances, the messenger IS the message.

You can find the same material presented by different sources, and in sampling this info from multiple sources you can sense a deep structure or underlying pattern to it.

However, the identity of the presenter is very important. We are humans learning from other humans. Personality often plays a large part in how the information is delivered and how it is received. Information doesn't live in a vacuum, it is tied to context. The presenter, especially if the presenter has a strong presence, is pretty much a big part of the experience, and we learn from experience, not disembodied information as in some sort of Platonic form.

My beliefs, of course.

Point well taken. All my learning of NLP has come from books and websites. I've never been to a training and probably have a limited perception of this fascinating science.

Tony apparently helps a lot of people, and many like him. I'm sure meeting him in person is different than listening to his stuff.

Personally, if you're desperate for help, his stuff can feel overwhelming. It's like, there's so much to do. But he's excellent reference. He's a human library of self-improvement methods and perception.

I myself was surprised at his new marriage. I don't know exactly what's his intentions, but I trust he really thought it through. Remember, he's not a God, he's only human, like the guy around the corner, except with unreasonably high energy. We all are.

Is his new wife's boobs really that much bigger? LOL, just playin...

To have someone open a door to a ball room doesn't make you a good dancer. In the the ballroom, you hear music, enter an ambiance, meet all kind of people: The life is yours helped by the door opener.

Tony Robbins sell discovery in his light. NLP this author or another, you advanced to the door and the author fires you up to dance. You can sit, talk, sing, work, meet people in different ways and avoid others. If the Band director offend you, the door opener is not to blame.

People enjoy life in the light they see fit: Another ball room presented by another door opener also have it's chaos.

I make this analogy to say that Tony's fired me in a model to build my value system, recognize my belief and take action. His teaching says that I have to make my own choices because he doens't consider himself a guru or an hypnotist. He teach to make my own decision faced with my life situation, environment, goal and take action.

Tony did what he thought he had to do. I do not agree divorce as a value in relationship. He incenced Becky often on his audios, he's valuing money, he takes opportunities from authors and telecommunication paradigm, so can I.

While I cannot value all his views, I can value what he's yapping about. His views opened my eyes with ears that listened. But once I am in the room, it's my dance.

I enjoy your ballroom and company.

Cheers.

Hasn't anyone heard of the scandal about Richard Bandler? He went to trial for the murder of his bookkeeper (who was also a prostitute with whom he "hooked up" many of his friends). He was (maybe still is?) a cocaine addict who admitted to witnessing this woman's murder but who said he spent the day and a half after her murder snorting cocaine with one of his two girlfriends and waiting until he had a "clear head" to report the murder to officials. He was acquitted of the murder.

If you believe what you read, however, he is either guilty of the murder or at least guilty of being a coke-head, of hooking his friends up with a prostitute, and of infidelity (at a minimum).

The point of my post is not to trash Richard Bandler, but to point out that, no matter what you think of a person, it is up to you to glean what is useful for your life out of what he or she writes or teaches. Truth be known, I doubt any of us would have great respect for ANYONE who teaches ANY theory that we might find useful. That is because people are people - they come in all shapes and sizes, they have all kinds of different habits, lifestyles, hopes, dreams, etc. Some of them are capable of inspiring us with their words and ideas. Some inspire us with their lives. It is a mistake to emulate someone and hope to be EXACTLY like them. You must learn to take what is useful to you from anything you read, hear, or see, and apply it to your life in the best way possible.

Tony Robbins may have traded in his older wife for a younger "enhanced" model. Or his first wife may have left HIM - and he may have subsequently overcome the difficulty of that rejection and found an even more beautiful person, inside and out. The stories you read in the press and on the internet are not always accurate. Please be aware, I am NOT defending Tony Robbins or justifying anyone's actions. I am merely pointing out that pontificating about whether someone is worthy of having his ideas listened to based on a judgment of his personal life is a mistake. Who cares what a person did or didn't do? Do their ideas speak to you because YOU can do something with them? What is the point of NLP or any other technique? To enhance and advance your life - to make it the best it can be, not to criticize or judge another's life. Keep things in perspective. Quit wasting your time trying to find the Messiah outside of yourself, and look within for the answers.

I am new to forum. Great post. Although, perhaps not popular hear, I think that is why Jesus Christ is the way.

How can Jesus Christ be the way when he was just a man? Some might even say Jesus Christ is a fictional character and there is no proof he ever existed.

I read that Mother Jones article about Richard Bandler, too.

It was pretty intense. I think the words "Daddy, please don't let them kill me" was splattered on the top of it. It's something she wrote in her diary some time before her murder. It goes to show the sensationalism involved in the article and makes me question the journalism....

But it is creepy, and it is important, I think, to know the kinds of people you're dealing with. Bandler was acquitted. Who knows if he really did it or not? What we do know is that he was a user of cocaine and was somehow involved with the crime. Just how is a mystery.

And Bandler did try to claim NLP as his intellectual property and had lawsuits against several trainers for various reasons.

So, yeah, he has several skeletons in his closets. Why not bring it up? Well, you did, and I'm glad.

It doesn't mean, however, that NLP is bad. There are several teachers and practitioners who are not cocaine addicted or have any involvement with murders.

If someone chose not to support Bandler in any way because of his past, I think that that would be a fair judgement.

Regarding the Bandler issue, in the opinion of my first NLP trainer he did it or helped do it. He told our class not to put people on pedestals and that we can use the skills without being like those who develop them if they are not good role-models.

IMO that applies to more than just NLP. I have a few videos of martial arts instructors who are very skilled but from my own experience and the experience of others I know these two guys are real jerks with almost cult-leader like attitudes. That doesn't mean the skills they teach are not valid and that I won't use the videos to train with. It does mean I won't train with them in person or recommend them to anyone else.

Like in anything, take what is useful and discard the rest.

IMO Tony's personal life is of little importance to the value of his products, except possibly the material he has on relationships. Even then, his advice is not necessarily bad, it might just not work well all the time or he might not have followed it himself.

It seems to be popular to slam people in NLP and similar for not practicing what they preach, and to an extent that may be a valid position. I don't see people saying that conventional medicine doesn't work because there are medical doctors who are obese, diabetic, alcoholic, smokers, etc. I worked with a doctor (not using NLP, it was at my job and I had to give him nutritional advice) who was obese and diabetic. I told him what he needed to eat and what foods to avoid but he insisted on eating food he knew would make his condition worse. I'm sure he's a good doctor for his patients, he just doesn't apply it to himself. That doesn't mean modern medicine is not valid, just that people are flawed.

I'd like to add that IMO some of Tony's products are a good introduction to NLP and he should be credited to popularizing the field. He's primarily a motivator rather than a trainer. There are a lot of people teaching NLP that you can learn much more from. His NLP skills are not really something I would model but considering how big his business is his business skills would be something worth modeling.

I actually modeled him once at a seminar. One method to model people in a seminar setting is to match their micro muscular movements as you would if you are establishing rapport. During the exercise where we are supposed to influence someone I successfully demonstrated his somewhat hyperactive speaking style like it was "normal" for me. It was an interesting experience but I haven't found a use for the behavior since the seminar.

You can try that skill with any speaker, teacher, or video of a seminar. Keep in mind that you'll be modeling the behaviors demonstrated, not necessarily other things about the person though it is possible that you will pick up other things.

[This message has been edited by Dosetsu (edited April 04, 2005).]

Tony, in his own way, can be very good with rapport.

He demonstrated matching my behavior patterns and widened the scope, lets say, of what can be mirrored for rapport purposes. That is, I had spoken to him and started to walk away, but then stopped and came back and told him something else. During his reply, he mirrored this behavior ... acting as if he were going on one course, reconsidering, and then going on another. It seemed quite natural at the time and only later did I realize that he had mirrored me.

So, yes, Tony is due credit where credit is due.

Criticizing Tony for not practicing what he preaches IS appropriate, because he preaches practicing what you preach.

Of course, some people agree with the sentiment, as J. R. Bobb Dobbs put it, "I don't practice what I preach because I am not the kind of person that I am preaching to!" Tony, however, makes it clear that what he says comes from personal power ... which is supposedly coming from integrity and congruence.

I am surprised that more people aren't critical of Tony in this regard.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited April 04, 2005).]

I like babayada's statement:

"Criticizing Tony for not practicing what he preaches IS appropriate, because he preaches practicing what you preach."

This is a valid point! One of the points in my post, though, was: do we really know what happened with Tony's first marriage? What if Becky was the one who wanted out, and what if he did everything in his "personal power" to make her stay and she still left?

I have no idea what happened with Tony's and Becky's marriage, but I do have a friend whose sister is the personal assistant to Tony and Sage, and she says that Tony is everything he appears to be and says he is. She also says that Sage is wonderful. Now, I'm not suggesting that we should blindly listen to my friend's sister - that's just a tidbit thrown in there to show that at least one person who has regular contact with Tony and Sage thinks they are "the real deal". Honestly, I could go either way: believing that Tony got sick of Becky and traded her in for a shiny new model, or believing that she was too intellectual for him and got sick of his entire personality. Either one is completely possible in my opinion.

But what I'm really saying is that we DO NOT KNOW what happened with his marriage and, not knowing what happened, how can we judge whether he is practicing what he preaches? He doesn't say that, using NLP, you can control the actions of those around you and make them stay with you and love you no matter what happens. So, what if Becky got sick of him? It could happen! She might have dumped him, and he might have used all of his resources to make the best out of that situation and seek out a mate who is better suited to him. Really, this is all speculation. As I said when I opened this post, I really do like and agree with the point that, if someone says they practice what they preach, they should! But, as a closing note, I will add that Tony says often that his methods don't promise a perfect life, without problems or obstacles. That isn't the point of what he teaches. The point is that, no matter what happens, you don't throw up your hands in defeat and say, "I'm done, I can't handle this!" but that you develop strategies for overcoming your difficulties and continually growing and becoming better. In that respect, he very well may be practicing what he preaches.

I dont think we should be hard on anyone....people change in 15 years......well Tonny comes out as the master of change in his books how can he ver fail to handle a changing wife...what about those talks about creating an adventorous, legendary relationship???? one things is clear...Tonny's love of humanity helps him excel in his business and business is all that he is into...to make it happen he has to show that he is perfect because motivational speakers cannot be just motivational speakers...they have to be rich...perfect....and all that

Tonny is human...he gets angry...he goes to toilet like everybody else...and he does get fed up....only this time he had to get out of the motivational speaking act to the real world and divorce

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Originally posted by AlanHilton:
Babayada ...

I've enjoyed alot of your posts but something in this thread made me want to respond by "chunking down" on your posting.

Let's examine your statement "Balance like getting rid of a wife because she's getting older and exchanging her for a younger model with fake boobs that you paid for?"

Let's apply some inquery process (since you have Abundance for Life) and some NLPish questioning.

"Getting rid of a wife because she's older."

Can you know that it is true? How do you know this is the reason that they divorced? Did you read an interview, talk to Tony or Becky, or is it just something you made up in your own head? (called hallucination in NLP)

Becky and Tony divorced after 15 years. That's a pretty long time. People change in 15 years. Are you married or single?

"exchanging her for a younger model"

Since you are much more up on the gossip than I am (I did not even know Tony was divorced and remarried until I read your post) what was the period of time that passed between divorce and the subsequent marriage?

Was it too short for your internal timetable? What would have been an appropriate length of time to wait before seeing someone else so it would have been ok with you? How old should his new wife have been so as not to seem like he was trading in on a newer model?

"with fake boobs that you paid for"

Wow, you really are up on the details. You even know whether she had a boob job or not and who paid for them. Sage's ex-husband claims he paid for them (google searched this morning). How do you you know who paid for them? Have you seen the receipt? What bothers you the most, that she had a boob job (did she really?) or that you think Tony paid for them? Would it have been okay with you if she used her own money?

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NYC_Dweller ...

There is a lot of NLP material out there. Start a thread asking for who has specific recommendations and you'll get some answers.

In answer to your specific question - I think Awaken the Giant Within is worth your time and money. I'd also recommend the "Unleash the Power Within" weekend with the firewalk if you have the resources. It is not too expensive and, like I said, a worthwhile experience.

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