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#15251 08/04/04 10:55 AM
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itsbjm,

And just because it is a treasure to some, it doesn't mean it's not worthless crap to others.

It works both ways.








#15252 08/04/04 02:44 PM
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Tono Offline OP
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Hi all

Nice debate here hey? Nobody is saying that info isn't good, but when a product is both expensive and highly marketed you expect not to have to keep adding to the mix.

How sad that anybody feels the need to spend several hours a day using several different products costing several hundred $$$$$ to do it.

My belief is that most people who sign up to HS are not neccesarily dysfunctional or depressed or whatever, they are probably really switched on go getters who hold down good jobs and are not easily fooled by marketing hype. In fact a good job is a necessity as HS is not cheap.

I was drawn to HS because it seemed so (out there) and credible in what it offered, not because I was depressed or suicidal or what ever! I agree that info about courses is good but it can dilute a persons resolve to focus on a single product for long enough to appreciate the benefits.

Obviously from this discussion there are a few people out there who spend most of their time and wealth persuing personal development nirvana at the expense of LIVING A LIFE! I love what HS has done for me so far and would not consider dropping it.

Come on people find a path, give it a good try, commit yourself to it and then go out and get a life too. You know, good old meeting people etc. I really think that there is a danger that a large minority of people will/have become personal development junkies without realising it!
and the more hooked they become, the more self righteous they become.

That should stir it up a bit hey?

Regards

Tono






#15253 08/04/04 07:54 PM
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This is you lucky day.

I'm really not supposed to tell you what I think of your attitude I see in these posts.

I just wrote "the sermon on the mount" and lost it during trying to send.






#15254 08/04/04 11:47 PM
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Tono:
I don't have time to give you a detailed response--I am too busy being happy!!!LOL

Heartbeat






#15255 09/08/04 07:08 AM
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Hi Guys
I have just been using the HS programme for only 8 weeks now, nothing has happened yet but hoping it will soon, I would love to finish the HS but as I live in Australia money is a problem and costs a lot more for us to purchase, but as soon as I can I will get the next level as the first level has not done anything hoping the second will although it may take a couple of months.
I dont mind getting different adds for other programms although I think it is a bit confusing as there is so much out there, you dont really know what to get in the end, I have just purchased the Boundless Renewal Cours as it was on special so we will see how it goes.

Cheers






#15256 10/17/04 04:35 PM
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What a curious discussion. I am currently using Centerpointe's Purification Level 4. I started HS about 10 years ago. I also teach a low tech form of meditation that I call Energy Flow Meditation. This form of meditation explores spiritual aspects, while HS explores human and personality aspects. Energy Flow is an extremely effective form of meditation, that HS enhances by clearing away personality issues that get in the way.

In my experience, the process of overwhelm can take on many forms. Irritation is one of them. I am and we all are constantly bombarded with information and marketing from everywhere. This will happen regardless of my personal thoughts or feelings about it. Getting grumpy about it, doesn't help anything, except being stuck.

Bill Harris's marketing techniques are what they are. Does this make any difference to me? Only if I am reisting or have a belief about it. Believing something doesn't necessarily make it true. I have always felt that there was never an end to learning and growing. There is always more to learn. Bill apparently believed, at the time, that HS was all anyone needed. He has moved on from that perspective and has recommended many other courses.

In my beginning with HS, I thought that the Hype was over done. I have since realized, it doesn't make any difference to me. If Centerpointe offers or recomends someting I am interested in, great. If not, it goes out of my awareness and no longer think about it.

I send each of you a vision of your highest path.

Zendar









#15257 10/18/04 04:54 AM
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This is a bit off the main topic here, although I could jump into the fray and say that I empathize with ALL opinions in this thread...

Zendar, you mentioned the process of overwhelm and indicated that irritation can be one of the forms it takes. Could you, or someone, explain to me what "overwhelm" is? I've seen it referenced in a number of posts in the discussion forum, but I don't know what it is.

I am not a holosync user (maybe that's obvious from the question), but I am currently using the Sound Health, Sound Wealth system. This is system that is supposed to be a broad-based body/mind/spirit/life healing system, and I'm struggling with it. (I'm in my third month now.) I've been considering my difficulties to be resistance/self-sabotage, but I'm curious about what this "overwhelm" is, why it occurs, how a person gets through it, etc.

Thanks for any insight you can provide!






#15258 10/18/04 06:50 AM
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It is a fairly common experience for people who meditate at some point during their meditation to reach a state in which they feel as if they are going crazy.

An intense amount of mental and emotional pressure builds up. Your awareness is bombarded by thoughts and feelings that feel quite beyond your control, and it can literally feel as if you're going nuts.

One of the goals of meditation is to still your mind. When you quiet down and observe, you'll notice a whole bunch of stuff, a lot of thoughts that feel like mental garbage, that you may not have realized was there. The mind chatters incessantly. It can get really, really intense.

One Zen Master said it's like a ball of molten lead is stuck in your throat, and you cannot swallow it but neither can you spit it up.

It seems the people who are into holosync like to use the label "overwhelm" to describe this phenomenon ... and to describe the state of a person any time he or she disagrees with Centerpointe. It's kinda like saying, "You're not evolved enough to handle your emotions, so that's why you disagree with us."

They believe that the holosync signal actually introduces a greater amount of "chaos" into the brain or mental system of the listener. The experience of overwhelm supposedly indicates a critical period of crisis in which the system has been infused with more chaos than its current configuration can tolerate. In order to compensate the brain "evolves" into a state of greater complexity in order to cope with the new amount of chaos bombarding it.

Taken as a metaphor, it might have some bearing on what is happening. But here we see the misapplication of an idea in one field of endeavor to explain (probably incorrectly) what is happening in another.

(There should be a show called "When non-scientists think they're scientists." It should have footage of people like Bill Harris going on about their half-baked ideas, and then have them torn apart and revealed for how mistaken and naive their misapprehensions are by REAL scientists. I'd love to watch that show. There were varieties of them on HBO and other channels, but they didn't have real scientists, just magicians like Penn And Teller.)

The original concept had to do with physics and chemistry. We're talking about billiard balls hitting one another. We're talking chemicals and molecules. This stuff is great for a model to explain and predict the activity occurring in this realm.

As John Grinder has pointed out on several occasions, applying rules of physics to the domain of the mind and living systems is where a lot of stupidity occurs. Here we have a prime example of it, and because of it Bill Harris is laughing smugly in his evolved state all the way to the bank. The only chaos he has to worry about is what he's going to do with all of his money ... or how much ridiculous marketing he's going to bombard people with this month.

Physics can explain the behavior of a soccer ball when you kick it. But it cannot do much to explain the behavior of a dog when you kick it. The ball will follow a trajectory based upon the forces acting upon it in a way that can be mathematically computed. The dog? Well, it might go forward a little bit, then might come back at you and bite you in the kinnikies. Or, it my curl into a ball and whine miserably. Same thing with the mind of a person when you apply force in some way to his body. Apples and oranges.

Prigione's idea is being taken out of context. Supposedly the use of binaural beats introduces "chaos" into the brain. Whatever. There might be a certain level of isomorphism between Ilya's idea and the events during holosync sessions that makes a person go, "Hey, that sounds like what goes on when I'm listening to my $100 cd!" Only, hmmmm, the same thing happens with traditional forms of meditation. So whatever gobbledygook they say about sound frequencies can be thrown out.

The problem is that people have lost the quotes (and their skepticism and sensibility ... as well as their money). They forget that the whole thing's just a metaphor in this instance. Are the brains of people who use holosync more evolved? I doubt it. None of the people here have exhibited any savant-like abilities. Though some sure do like to believe that they are on a higher level of existence than others. I guess you could consider that some sort of ability.

The only real chaos holosync infused into my brain came from the realization that I paid good money for the crap.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 18, 2004).]






#15259 10/18/04 08:35 AM
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Oh ... another thing or two, my opinions about what overwhelm is, why it occurs, how to cope:

What: a whole bunch of mental activity that occurs during meditation that is a lot like a whole bunch of people screaming for your attention at once. It's overwhelming.

Why? In a state of meditation:

1) You become aware of activity that already exists in the mind.

2) You become more sensitive to this actiivty.

3) There can be a struggle for your awareness ... focusing on the mantra vs. the activity of your mind which may distract you.

4) The brain, when presented a steady stimulus, will begin to perceive patterns that aren't there. That is, it may sort of generate its own static, it's own self-stimulation. This is sort of what occurs in sensory deprivation tanks.

The mind gets overwhelmed by all this.

What can you do? The approach in TM is to "allow" this activity to take place. The attitude is extremely passive, you just let it come and let it go. Do not try to fight to keep your awareness on your mantra or meditational device. Keep going with the device, but let thoughts come and go. Become an observer, just witness the activity of your mind.

Even so, you may get caught up in it. Just breathe. Just deal. It's temporary. Knowing that this event can occur is sometimes enough to cope with it. It's natural. It comes and it goes. You aren't going nuts. It's normal. Just observe it. It does get better.

After the overwhelm, like with people who go through masochistic experiences like getting whipped, there is a tremendous sense of relief and a flush of endorphins.

I do believe weathering these internal storms makes you a more centered, balanced person. Granted, stuff from the unconscious can also well up from deepening your consciousness. This can also lead to emotional overwhelm and trials during your non-meditative experience. You can handle these upsets the same way. Observe them. Work through them. Breathe.







#15260 10/18/04 04:11 PM
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Babayada,

Thank you so much for the Overwhelm explanation, insights, and advice! It was very helpful, and it gives me insight into some of what's going on with me right now.

I was off base in my guess of what Overwhelm is. I was thinking it was the mental garbage and negative programming in the subconscious bubbling up and defending itself against whatever method is being used to release or reprogram it. I thought the defense and conflict could become overwhelming at times, hence "Overwhelm." Wrong again...

Thanks again!






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