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#15241 08/02/04 02:04 PM
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Tono Offline OP
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Hi All

First of let me make it clear thay I am a HS user of two years and have been very satisfied with my results to date. They have been no more and no less than CRI claimed in their marketing spiel. At this point I do feel that I will see HS through to the end.

Now for my main criticism of HS!!! When I signed up HS was called the "End" as in, the end of your search for self development. I believed that then and still believe it because my results have pleased me. However, just lately I have been plagued or should I say SPAMMED by CRI advertising self development courses which Bill Harris seems to enthuse about. Sedona, relationships and now some bloody crap about voice training which costs the earth and the only people ina position to purchase it are movie stars!! (I'll be Back)

I feel that advertising all these courses is unacceptable. If HS is the product that it claims to be then all of the issues dealt with by these other courses will be dealt with by HS in due course. One of the biggest problems I can see with HS is that it takes more time to work than most people are prepared to give. This is unfortunate because HS really does work given enough time.

So! CRI, lay off the other courses and promote/defend HS more. I have been increasingly alarmed at the negative feedback of late. There was a time when it was almost impossible to find a negative word about HS.






#15242 08/02/04 09:03 PM
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Tono
Why have you voiced your disquiet to this forum. Complain to Bill Harris, to be fair he does respond.
Maybe your interpretation of the meaning of 'The End' is at fault. I am coming towards the end of Awakening Level 4. From LSC I have purchased Photoreading,Natural Brilliance,Genius Code and Spring Forest Qigong. I see all these products as tools for a specific purpose.
There is a lot of cross advertising by LSC,Centerpointe and Hale Dwoskin. So what! The Sedona Method nicely dovetails with Holosync as a means of dealing with overwhelm. Other products mentioned offer specific skills to enhance your life.
You do not have to buy any of these. It is purely optional. The notion that you can gain everything from one product is misguided.






#15243 08/02/04 10:27 PM
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"The notion that you can gain everything from one product is misguided."

Well, that's what Tono was referring to, I think. When I started, the program was called "The End" meaning the end of all programs as "The End". But then we get alot of these recommendations from other companies which seem to keep going on and on. Not there is anything totally wrong with this. It just flew in the face of what that CRI originally called their program. Now that they've changed its name to "Holosync Solution" it seems to be more fitting.

I'm not complaining but this is why alot people get annoyed with the marketing etc.






#15244 08/03/04 05:16 AM
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Hi Buddies,

Yes, I can understand that sad feeling when one thinks one has theeeee.. solution and
the answer to all problems and then the same company comes up with other systems
and programs one has..... to get.

The issue is a bit like specialization/specialization vs
diversification.

From own experience I can say that I have benefited from some of these programs
and especially from many recommendations on this discussion forum.

Furthermore, when we signed up for hs there was a little box asking whether we
are interested in more related information to personal growth.
Many of as has clicked yes so here we are.

But that can be reversed of course. Just email CRI and tell them that you don't want
anymore information.

For the records that voice training does not cost thousands of dollars but just about
$ 250.00 after one free month.

P.S. I think changed the program name from "The End" to the hs solution because
they realized that there is a lot more after
hs.

Cheers,









#15245 08/03/04 08:50 AM
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Hi all

thanks for the response. I agree that some of these programs are ok. I purchased Sedona and found it quite usefull initially but the effectiveness soon wore off. The difference with HS is that the changes are evolutionary and permanent and require a longer priod to work.

Bill states this clearly when he tells us that HS is not a quick magic bullet. Despite this clarity some people still complain about the results of their using HS as if it is something they were not made aware of in the beginning.

Most of the complainants would appear to be experiencing exactly those symptoms listed in the HS literature. The problem I have with pushing other courses onto people is that it makes it easier to opt out of HS before it has been given reasonable time to work and try something cheaper and apparently equally as good as HS but without the upheaval assosiated with HS.

For many people HS is a very big commitment and we want to be confident that the product we signed up for initially is every bit as good as we were told it would be. Personally I feel that pushing other courses onto people can be perceived by many as admitting to gaps in what HS can offer. I dont actually believe there are gaps in HS technology.









#15246 08/03/04 04:10 PM
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I love information so when Centerpointe sends me mail, I enjoy it. So far, the only other program besides HS I have bought is Sedona and it has served me well.

BTW, Holosync has not only served me well, it has changed my life. So, I am set for life with Holosync, SFQ, Sedona(and TAT). I am a happy gal.

Heartbeat






#15247 08/03/04 09:58 PM
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Just to chime in...HS has delivered for me everything that it promised and more. there is no more doubt for me that I am going to finish the program. From my experience and perspective, HS will deliver for you as well if you keep going. Remember, we all have different "baggages", so it takes different times to take effect for different people. The way i understand HS is that, HS develops in you expanded awareness that will allow you to distinguish between the map and the teritory. once you can do this, you can then put your map together the way you want it. Wether you realise it or not, everything that "happens" to you, you attracted based on your map. Now, if you do HS at the same time add other products that will put the map together as you go along, the faster this transformation. This has been my experience. One of the big Life issue that I have not seen on any of this thread regarding HS, is the issue of RESPONS.ABILITY. You give away your power whenever you BLAME something outside of you for the way you feel or act. Like it has been said, Between stimulus and response is choice. Thanks to Bill and HS, I have learned and continue to learn to excercise this power. Anyone can excercise this power...if you choose to.






#15248 08/03/04 10:34 PM
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Hi,

I got the first level of Holosync (which I feel has been beneficial), and have been bombarded by marketing ever since - envelopes within envelopes entitled "here's an even better offer ... "

I don't think this is the best way to approach a relatively 'switched on' client base. I was very surprised at this approach by a company who should know better.

Mark.








#15249 08/04/04 03:12 AM
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Tono! Something to think about. What some people see as "crap" others see as "Treasurers".

quote "now some bloody crap about voice training which costs the earth and the only people in a position to purchase it are movie stars!!"

Just because it is something that does not appeal to you personally, that does not make it "crap", it just makes it something that is not in your field of interest.

Many people who are not movie stars, for various reasons have a desire for a strong, rich voice, if there is a program out there that will educate and train us on how to achieve this, and Bill Harris has a lead to this program, then that's incredible.

I paid down my $250 committment within 2 seconds of receiving this email advertisement.

There are as many varied fields of interest as there are people in the world. So for those of us who find value in such a program please don't put us down by calling it "crap"

My field of interest can be found at the following website. Check out a club in your area, it will be the best investment in yourself you could ever make. http://www.toastmasters.org

P.S. I am at the Purification Level 3 in Bill Harris's End program. For me it was not the End it was the Beginning.








#15250 08/04/04 09:27 AM
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itsbjm
I agree with you. Getting actively involved with Toastmasters is one of the most benefical steps that I have ever taken. It sure raises your self confidence and you meet some great people.

Nick






#15251 08/04/04 10:55 AM
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itsbjm,

And just because it is a treasure to some, it doesn't mean it's not worthless crap to others.

It works both ways.








#15252 08/04/04 02:44 PM
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Hi all

Nice debate here hey? Nobody is saying that info isn't good, but when a product is both expensive and highly marketed you expect not to have to keep adding to the mix.

How sad that anybody feels the need to spend several hours a day using several different products costing several hundred ££££$$$$$ to do it.

My belief is that most people who sign up to HS are not neccesarily dysfunctional or depressed or whatever, they are probably really switched on go getters who hold down good jobs and are not easily fooled by marketing hype. In fact a good job is a necessity as HS is not cheap.

I was drawn to HS because it seemed so (out there) and credible in what it offered, not because I was depressed or suicidal or what ever! I agree that info about courses is good but it can dilute a persons resolve to focus on a single product for long enough to appreciate the benefits.

Obviously from this discussion there are a few people out there who spend most of their time and wealth persuing personal development nirvana at the expense of LIVING A LIFE! I love what HS has done for me so far and would not consider dropping it.

Come on people find a path, give it a good try, commit yourself to it and then go out and get a life too. You know, good old meeting people etc. I really think that there is a danger that a large minority of people will/have become personal development junkies without realising it!
and the more hooked they become, the more self righteous they become.

That should stir it up a bit hey?

Regards

Tono






#15253 08/04/04 07:54 PM
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This is you lucky day.

I'm really not supposed to tell you what I think of your attitude I see in these posts.

I just wrote "the sermon on the mount" and lost it during trying to send.






#15254 08/04/04 11:47 PM
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Tono:
I don't have time to give you a detailed response--I am too busy being happy!!!LOL

Heartbeat






#15255 09/08/04 07:08 AM
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Hi Guys
I have just been using the HS programme for only 8 weeks now, nothing has happened yet but hoping it will soon, I would love to finish the HS but as I live in Australia money is a problem and costs a lot more for us to purchase, but as soon as I can I will get the next level as the first level has not done anything hoping the second will although it may take a couple of months.
I dont mind getting different adds for other programms although I think it is a bit confusing as there is so much out there, you dont really know what to get in the end, I have just purchased the Boundless Renewal Cours as it was on special so we will see how it goes.

Cheers






#15256 10/17/04 04:35 PM
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What a curious discussion. I am currently using Centerpointe's Purification Level 4. I started HS about 10 years ago. I also teach a low tech form of meditation that I call Energy Flow Meditation. This form of meditation explores spiritual aspects, while HS explores human and personality aspects. Energy Flow is an extremely effective form of meditation, that HS enhances by clearing away personality issues that get in the way.

In my experience, the process of overwhelm can take on many forms. Irritation is one of them. I am and we all are constantly bombarded with information and marketing from everywhere. This will happen regardless of my personal thoughts or feelings about it. Getting grumpy about it, doesn't help anything, except being stuck.

Bill Harris's marketing techniques are what they are. Does this make any difference to me? Only if I am reisting or have a belief about it. Believing something doesn't necessarily make it true. I have always felt that there was never an end to learning and growing. There is always more to learn. Bill apparently believed, at the time, that HS was all anyone needed. He has moved on from that perspective and has recommended many other courses.

In my beginning with HS, I thought that the Hype was over done. I have since realized, it doesn't make any difference to me. If Centerpointe offers or recomends someting I am interested in, great. If not, it goes out of my awareness and no longer think about it.

I send each of you a vision of your highest path.

Zendar









#15257 10/18/04 04:54 AM
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This is a bit off the main topic here, although I could jump into the fray and say that I empathize with ALL opinions in this thread...

Zendar, you mentioned the process of overwhelm and indicated that irritation can be one of the forms it takes. Could you, or someone, explain to me what "overwhelm" is? I've seen it referenced in a number of posts in the discussion forum, but I don't know what it is.

I am not a holosync user (maybe that's obvious from the question), but I am currently using the Sound Health, Sound Wealth system. This is system that is supposed to be a broad-based body/mind/spirit/life healing system, and I'm struggling with it. (I'm in my third month now.) I've been considering my difficulties to be resistance/self-sabotage, but I'm curious about what this "overwhelm" is, why it occurs, how a person gets through it, etc.

Thanks for any insight you can provide!






#15258 10/18/04 06:50 AM
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It is a fairly common experience for people who meditate at some point during their meditation to reach a state in which they feel as if they are going crazy.

An intense amount of mental and emotional pressure builds up. Your awareness is bombarded by thoughts and feelings that feel quite beyond your control, and it can literally feel as if you're going nuts.

One of the goals of meditation is to still your mind. When you quiet down and observe, you'll notice a whole bunch of stuff, a lot of thoughts that feel like mental garbage, that you may not have realized was there. The mind chatters incessantly. It can get really, really intense.

One Zen Master said it's like a ball of molten lead is stuck in your throat, and you cannot swallow it but neither can you spit it up.

It seems the people who are into holosync like to use the label "overwhelm" to describe this phenomenon ... and to describe the state of a person any time he or she disagrees with Centerpointe. It's kinda like saying, "You're not evolved enough to handle your emotions, so that's why you disagree with us."

They believe that the holosync signal actually introduces a greater amount of "chaos" into the brain or mental system of the listener. The experience of overwhelm supposedly indicates a critical period of crisis in which the system has been infused with more chaos than its current configuration can tolerate. In order to compensate the brain "evolves" into a state of greater complexity in order to cope with the new amount of chaos bombarding it.

Taken as a metaphor, it might have some bearing on what is happening. But here we see the misapplication of an idea in one field of endeavor to explain (probably incorrectly) what is happening in another.

(There should be a show called "When non-scientists think they're scientists." It should have footage of people like Bill Harris going on about their half-baked ideas, and then have them torn apart and revealed for how mistaken and naive their misapprehensions are by REAL scientists. I'd love to watch that show. There were varieties of them on HBO and other channels, but they didn't have real scientists, just magicians like Penn And Teller.)

The original concept had to do with physics and chemistry. We're talking about billiard balls hitting one another. We're talking chemicals and molecules. This stuff is great for a model to explain and predict the activity occurring in this realm.

As John Grinder has pointed out on several occasions, applying rules of physics to the domain of the mind and living systems is where a lot of stupidity occurs. Here we have a prime example of it, and because of it Bill Harris is laughing smugly in his evolved state all the way to the bank. The only chaos he has to worry about is what he's going to do with all of his money ... or how much ridiculous marketing he's going to bombard people with this month.

Physics can explain the behavior of a soccer ball when you kick it. But it cannot do much to explain the behavior of a dog when you kick it. The ball will follow a trajectory based upon the forces acting upon it in a way that can be mathematically computed. The dog? Well, it might go forward a little bit, then might come back at you and bite you in the kinnikies. Or, it my curl into a ball and whine miserably. Same thing with the mind of a person when you apply force in some way to his body. Apples and oranges.

Prigione's idea is being taken out of context. Supposedly the use of binaural beats introduces "chaos" into the brain. Whatever. There might be a certain level of isomorphism between Ilya's idea and the events during holosync sessions that makes a person go, "Hey, that sounds like what goes on when I'm listening to my $100 cd!" Only, hmmmm, the same thing happens with traditional forms of meditation. So whatever gobbledygook they say about sound frequencies can be thrown out.

The problem is that people have lost the quotes (and their skepticism and sensibility ... as well as their money). They forget that the whole thing's just a metaphor in this instance. Are the brains of people who use holosync more evolved? I doubt it. None of the people here have exhibited any savant-like abilities. Though some sure do like to believe that they are on a higher level of existence than others. I guess you could consider that some sort of ability.

The only real chaos holosync infused into my brain came from the realization that I paid good money for the crap.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 18, 2004).]






#15259 10/18/04 08:35 AM
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Oh ... another thing or two, my opinions about what overwhelm is, why it occurs, how to cope:

What: a whole bunch of mental activity that occurs during meditation that is a lot like a whole bunch of people screaming for your attention at once. It's overwhelming.

Why? In a state of meditation:

1) You become aware of activity that already exists in the mind.

2) You become more sensitive to this actiivty.

3) There can be a struggle for your awareness ... focusing on the mantra vs. the activity of your mind which may distract you.

4) The brain, when presented a steady stimulus, will begin to perceive patterns that aren't there. That is, it may sort of generate its own static, it's own self-stimulation. This is sort of what occurs in sensory deprivation tanks.

The mind gets overwhelmed by all this.

What can you do? The approach in TM is to "allow" this activity to take place. The attitude is extremely passive, you just let it come and let it go. Do not try to fight to keep your awareness on your mantra or meditational device. Keep going with the device, but let thoughts come and go. Become an observer, just witness the activity of your mind.

Even so, you may get caught up in it. Just breathe. Just deal. It's temporary. Knowing that this event can occur is sometimes enough to cope with it. It's natural. It comes and it goes. You aren't going nuts. It's normal. Just observe it. It does get better.

After the overwhelm, like with people who go through masochistic experiences like getting whipped, there is a tremendous sense of relief and a flush of endorphins.

I do believe weathering these internal storms makes you a more centered, balanced person. Granted, stuff from the unconscious can also well up from deepening your consciousness. This can also lead to emotional overwhelm and trials during your non-meditative experience. You can handle these upsets the same way. Observe them. Work through them. Breathe.







#15260 10/18/04 04:11 PM
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Babayada,

Thank you so much for the Overwhelm explanation, insights, and advice! It was very helpful, and it gives me insight into some of what's going on with me right now.

I was off base in my guess of what Overwhelm is. I was thinking it was the mental garbage and negative programming in the subconscious bubbling up and defending itself against whatever method is being used to release or reprogram it. I thought the defense and conflict could become overwhelming at times, hence "Overwhelm." Wrong again...

Thanks again!






#15261 10/18/04 09:45 PM
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Some people might agree with you in that description, benewme.

Notice what attributes you're giving to negative programming. It "bubbles up" and then "protects itself."

"Negative programming" is just information in your mind. It does not have awareness, it does not move up or down, it does not protect itself.

The most compelling model for this sort of thing I have come across is what Edward de Bono describes in several of his books.

The mind is an environment in which information self-organizes. Some things "fit" together, some things don't. (Granted this is just another way of talking, information does not come in pieces of varying shapes.) When new information doesn't go in, you may have to reorganize your ideas so that it can fit, or perhaps view your ideas from a new perspective to see how things fit.

I don't agree, in general, with the conept of self-sabotage. You are not some kind of double agent. Rather, you may have a variety of forces working inside you, appetites, desires, beliefs, etc. Sometimes you want to move forward to get this, but then you also have a drive to move back to get that. Is that self-sabotage? No. It's just a situation where you need to be more informed about your drives and more intelligent about getting them satisfied.

Sometimes it's go back first, get this, then move forward and get that. Sometimes it's start back here, so both of them are on your path. Sometimes its find a different way to satisfy one so that its on the path to another.

This is just a way of talking about it. I think we get so caught up in our ways of understanding things that we think that things are actually that way. It's good to take different perspectives.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 18, 2004).]






#15262 10/21/04 06:06 AM
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Zendar,

Interesting to meet someone on an advanced level of the hs program. I am currently on
purification 2 however I am just only five years and a few month on the program.

Did you stay on the program all those ten years or did you have breaks? I am curious about the length of time. I certainly believe that one should not rush through the program otherwise one might miss the benefit.

Cheers,


[This message has been edited by Frodo02 (edited October 21, 2004).]






#15263 10/22/04 12:45 AM
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hey all,
wow, i didn't know so many people use holosync by bill harris. I do agree it is a wonderful program. i am only in the dive, emmerse phase b/c I can't afford the remaining phases. I agree that it takes committment and I started experiencing emotional release that was remarkable to my personal growth. I'm giving natural brilliance a try b/c I believe personal growth never stops. i do agree that you have to be patient with each program and know that it's not a quick fix. Hey it didn't take us overnight to develop these issues right? I would be curious to know how else the holysync has helped those. how could you afford it? Also the one thing that saddens me. when you are in a relationship and you are going through emotional changes, sometimes it's hard for the mate to understand. I am happy that I am resolving my emotions. peace






#15264 10/23/04 08:40 PM
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SoulEternity,

All levels of the hs program have a "dive" and "immersion". The only difference is that these are stronger.

Where is a will ther is a way. You can buy used levels of the hs program on ebay a lot cheaper or you can use NB to generate enough money so that you can afford the program.

The entire program consisting of 12 levels are available for less then $ 2000 if you join become an inner circle member at CRI.

Cheers,







#15265 10/25/04 08:29 PM
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Let's see, every level has a Dive and an Immersion. So does that work out to 24 CDs containing, basically, two tones of differing pitch in each channel that are supposed to do the "magic"?

And all for only ~$2000.00?

$2000/24 = $83.33. Wow! That's only $83.33 per CD of environmental effects with binaural beat tones!

By contrast:

BWGEN.exe is free. There's your binaural beat tones.

There .wav files prepared to be looped containing environmental effects that are free. There's your pretty rain to listen to.

Compare $83.33 to the cost of a single, blank CD. And you don't even need that. You can create an MP3 or other kind of file FREE.








#15266 10/25/04 11:20 PM
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Gee, your not being sacastic by any chance.

Your explaination proves your ignorance.








#15267 10/26/04 12:19 AM
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Ok, Watcher.

First of all, let's cure some ignorance on your part. The correct spellings of the words you are trying to write are "sarcastic" and "explanation."

Instead of simply saying I am ignorant, which amounts to name calling, please provide some useful information.

I am willing to admit there are facts I do not know. Ignorance isn't so bad. It can be cured by acquiring information. Put your money where your mouth is and fill in the empty spaces.

I am going to assume that the explanation to which you refer is my most recent post, so I will address that topic only.

As far as I know, Watcher, the content of the CDs contains environmental sound effects and binaural beat frequencies. Am I not correct?

What's missing? I guess you could include customer service, someone to talk to about your experiences, which can also be gotten free of charge (that is, you can talk to friends and other people over the net who have been there before), and then you have materials from Centerpointe explaining their philosophy behind their products and their use. From what I have seen of that, you can also gather this sort of information for free.

Really, it may be ignorance, but I don't see why those products should cost that much for any other reason than pure greed.

If it is ignorance, then inform me. My guess is there really isn't that much quality information for you to offer. This is why you stop at a mere insult.

I try to provide the best quality of information I can to back up what I say. Lets see you do the same.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 25, 2004).]






#15268 10/26/04 04:26 AM
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Babayada, you still understood perfectly well what Iíd said even if I didnít proof read my last post.

Everyone is ďignorantĒ of something; its an impossibility to know EVERYTHING. And youíre no different. And your right, ignorance isnít a bad thing, Iíve simply stated a fact about your response to a product. Thatís it! (did you see the Smiley emoticons??)

To prove holosync works or not would be impossible for me to do. I have know idea if youíve attempted to do h/s but if you could hold your scepticism aside and went up into the higher levels of the program you would find just how powerful this program is. And yes, Awakening Prologue did produced similar results as per CRIís support letters detailed (and more). There are many thousands of people who do this program and whom have had great insights about themselves, how they operate within the world, and do so at a higher level.

ďAs far as I know, Watcher, the content of the CDs contains environmental sound effects and binaural beat frequencies. Am I not correct?Ē

Yes, your correct! But the whole crux of the program is the Ďbinaural beatsí AND the lowering of the carrier frequencies. This information has been in the public domain for eons and, yes, anyone can go out and produce their own BB CD and flog it off. Well, why arenít they I say? I donít see ANY other company that offers as much as CRI do (within the context of binaural beat products). One could argue Awakened Minds does but theyíre claiming a different concept all together (not the lowering of carrier frequencies).

In regards to bwgen we had one bloke coming onto the holosync forum saying how he was Ďfreaking outí because he was mixing and matching different binaural beats and trying to mimic holosync. He may have even succeeded but he swore he would go off ALL binaural beats as they were proving too powerful for him Ė too fast too quick. I believe he returned later and said heíd stick to the structured program of holosync, no guess work involved.

ďReally, it may be ignorance, but I don't see why those products should cost that much for any other reason than pure greed.Ē

If I go out to a restaurant and order quality meal I could argue back to the waiter that this is just too bloody expensive; this restaurant is being greedy because they're charging fifty odd bucks for a plate of food (with bread rolls though ). You could then compare how much it costs to buy food from the local supermarket and buy a recipe book and whip up a masterpiece for less than half the price (the examples are endless).

Remember, CRI are offering 12 months refund on Awakening Prologue, if you donít like it send it back for Christís sake. Would you Babayada find another apparent anomaly with CRIís marketing structure?

I wonít bother with any other comments as they may be considered derogative at this point in time, as I can clearly see that this subject seems somewhat sensitive in nature for some. Of course you could respond and say that CRI are spooling off marketing clap-trap, ripping people off, the program is too expensive, Bill H is full of it etc etc (Iíve heard it all before). Well, be my guest but I know of many people who ARE experiencing great results from this product and I will certainly continue to reap the many benefits that are happening for me (as others will).

[This message has been edited by watcher05 (edited October 25, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by watcher05 (edited October 25, 2004).]






#15269 10/26/04 04:41 AM
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If the free "hololsync" stuff would be that good as babayada claims then it would certainly be a big competition to Bill's company.

According to Bill Harris there are thousands competitors offering "brain wave" CDs and tapes but nobody comes close to Centerpoints product. This cannot be attributed to advertising alone since if the product would be inferior it would become known
very quickly in todays information
age.

I personally have tested "Awakening Mind" but I find it no match to hs.

Another item is that what is free or too cheap is not wanted buy most people.

It looks to me that babayada thinks that creating hs cds is an easy game amd therefore greedy Bill is cashing in un-earned profits. It may be esay to create hs cds but to get them to CRI's efficiancy seems to be a problem for most competitors.

I don't think that there is currently any better product on the market.


Cheers,








#15270 10/26/04 08:41 AM
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I have used the Holosync CDs. I wasn't too terribly impressed. My bias is towards using more natural means of meditation for healing and inner connection. I've used a large amount of various entrainment based products in the past. I usually use them for entertainment now.

I do think the Holosync CDs work in so far as any form of meditation over a long period of time works. Is it technologically superior ultra-meditation? My judgment is no, it isn't. While certain forms of traditional meditation don't seem to work for some where holosync does, I suspect that these people did not learn to do traditional meditation well. In my experience, traditional meditation has brought me into deeper and more profound states than any entrainment technology I've used.

I am willing to believe that the Centerpointe products are superior to many others on the market. But this, I think, is not the secret to their ongoing success. Their aggressive marketing is. Bill Harris has come up with an ingenious marketing strategy. He doesn't sell CDs. He sells a lifetime of spiritual progress. That is what people buy. It's a great job he's done.

It's also practically a crime. The amount of money he charges per CD is outrageously high. It isn't like getting a $50.00 meal. It's like buying a hot dog for $50.00 every so often because a guy has bamboozled you into believing you will be malnourished if you don't. Sure, it might be a gourmet hot dog. Sure, for a hot dog, it might be really tasty and nutritious. But you're being robbed. You're being taken advantage of.

Centerpointe likes to present themselves as people who are spiritual, people who care, people who just want to help. Then they charge an arm an a leg for a product that probably costs just dollars to produce. How would you feel if you learned the production costs of the CDs were in the single digits per CD? Would that make you mad at all? Don't you see how hypocritical it is for Centerpointe to claim that they're about spirituality when it's apparent that they worship mammon?

Listen, there are people out there who charge $100.00 an hour to look at your computer for viruses and to remove them if they find them. Do people pay this amount? Yes. Do they believe they are being helped? Yes. Are they given a sense of security? Yes. Are they being totally ripped off? Yes.

Instead of taking the time and effort to learn how to operate their computer, people are willing to pay large amounts that through their ignorance they believe is a fair price in order to feel secure. Why? Laziness and fear.

Why aren't people making their own holosync tapes? Laziness and fear. They think there is more to it than there is. They don't want to put forth the effort to experiment and learn. They would rather buy something pre-packaged and nice looking with a lot of marketing. Something packaged specifically for them to believe in and buy more of. Bill Harris understands, more than other vendors, that he is selling an experience. He is smart enough to know that people want something to believe in. They want to be part of a lifelong journey. That's what he's sold you. And you've bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Are you being helped? Sure. Your spiritual PC is free from viruses. Keep subscribed.

I could do the same thing in terms of PC work. I used to be a PC technician. It'd be nice to make $100 a pop like that. I don't do it, however, because I have ethics. I have spiritual beliefs about helping people. If someone was freaking out about their PC being screwed up, I'd help them for free.

If you guys can't see the difference, or don't want to, well, what can I say?

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 26, 2004).]






#15271 10/26/04 09:17 AM
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I am in my fourth year of Holosync meditation. I have had great results. Previously, I had meditated in the traditional manner for twenty years. I have found that Holosync takes me deeper.
But I agree with Babayada, the pricing is exorbitant. After the first year, I seldom used the helpline. It also annoys me that Bill Harris has brought out an NLP based course to go along with Holosync. This should be included. The fact that Holosync takes ten years, is not the problem. Each level should be $50 at the most.
In England we have an Austrailian arts critic,Clive James. James once said 'Why do people or groups who promise enlightenment always have one eye on your wallet'. Nobody denies anyone the right to make a good living, but ripping people off is not on.
After the next two levels are up (Purification 2) I am quitting the program. I am very happy with the results, but not with the price.






#15272 10/26/04 07:07 PM
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Holosync works. The Internal Map of Reality Expander helps speed up changing the psychological MUCK that we all have so that we get to the good parts of our lifeís adventure faster. (hint: for an example of this muck, read through all these posts on this thread. lol)

If there was a way to use Holosync not just to stop feeling bad but to help create/enjoy whatever you want in life, wouldn't you want to do it sooner than later???

I use both Holosync and am taking the online course and all I can say is AWESOME. I'm changing fast and loving it. Stay miserable all you who want to.

PS. I donít like how Bill markets either but I do love his products, his company and his dedication to helping others. I have received personal email replies from him with this course. I canít imagine how with all the people involved. The company bends over backwards to help no matter what I needÖ The Centerpointe Retreat CDs with Billís talks are life changing themselves. His book Thresholds of the Mind is too. So who cares if I donít like his marketing. There is too good to like to even worry about this one small thing.







#15273 10/26/04 07:14 PM
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I relate to your love for Holosync. I don't like their marketing either but I must say I also love their online course. It complements Holosync in that is helps speed up the awakening process/becoming more conscious. It has nothing to do with HS not working or being effective, just helping a little with the process.

In my experience, that means if it would have taken 5 years to get over being miserable using HS and then 4 years of positive mediation with HS. Now I get 2 years of using HS and the Online course to quit being miserable and 7 years of 'who knows where this adventure is leading' mediations. I cannot say enough about the good of the online course!

Either way HS is awesome!

quote:
Originally posted by Tono:
Hi All

First of let me make it clear thay I am a HS user of two years and have been very satisfied with my results to date. They have been no more and no less than CRI claimed in their marketing spiel. At this point I do feel that I will see HS through to the end.

Now for my main criticism of HS!!! When I signed up HS was called the "End" as in, the end of your search for self development. I believed that then and still believe it because my results have pleased me. However, just lately I have been plagued or should I say SPAMMED by CRI advertising self development courses which Bill Harris seems to enthuse about. Sedona, relationships and now some bloody crap about voice training which costs the earth and the only people ina position to purchase it are movie stars!! (I'll be Back)

I feel that advertising all these courses is unacceptable. If HS is the product that it claims to be then all of the issues dealt with by these other courses will be dealt with by HS in due course. One of the biggest problems I can see with HS is that it takes more time to work than most people are prepared to give. This is unfortunate because HS really does work given enough time.

So! CRI, lay off the other courses and promote/defend HS more. I have been increasingly alarmed at the negative feedback of late. There was a time when it was almost impossible to find a negative word about HS.









#15274 10/26/04 09:08 PM
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Nick,

I am now five years on hs and at purification
2. I too made some remarkable changes for the better over the years and especially over
the last year.

When I joined the hs program I found the price for the complete course (inner circle)
actually very reasonable.

Compared of what I had paid before in other systems, most of them where run by former scientologists.

For instance I paid for one course, "codes course" US $ 2.000,00. The course lasted for
one week but I got instnat results from. The phone started ringing while I was on the course and I doubled my income over the next
year.

I did also an Avatar course which costs now
$ 3.000 - 3.500 for a ten day course. The reason these spiritual courses are so high
priced is that they want only people who are realy commited.

By the way I never got the impression the Centerpointe claims to have spiritual goals.
A survey among participants showed that most of us join the has program more for practical
advantages such as financial security, harmoy
etc.

Smeagel:

I am too on Bill's online course and love it in spite of having to do a hell of a lot of homework.

babayada:

Reading your posts here on the LS board I get
the impression that you are on a kind of vendetta against Bill Harris.
Therefore you should be aware that you probably blank out a lot of information which
might not support your viewpoint.








#15275 10/27/04 01:35 AM
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Smeagle,

I am glad holosync works so well for you.

With regard to blanking out information, I don't have a vendetta against Bill Harris. I have a big moral issue with what he and others in his company are doing. I agree that when you have a big emotional reaction to something, you tend to focus on supporting information and delete the rest. I do take the time to read differing points of view several times, to pick up information I may have missed.

I am curious about this Map of Reality Expander. Tell us more about it and why you think it's so effective.

In your post, Smeagle, I saw an implication that if you do not use Holosync, then you're miserable and your life is not an adventure. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am sure there are people who use Holosync, even the advanced levels, who are miserable, just like there are people who don't who are miserable. And, of course, there are people using it who are gleeful, just like there are those who don't use it who are gleeful.

I have to say, that it appears to me that people who have been doing it for a long time appear to be happy and balanced. You sound like you have found something that works, and if you can afford it financially, then I am happy for you. I still think, however, that you're being ripped in terms of money. It looks to me that they are charging approximately 5 times as much as they should for their products.

Look at what LSC is doing with the Abundance for Life course. The course is designed extremely well, to provoke responses through merely listening to it. That is, merely following the course teaches the behaviors and thought patterns you're supposed to learn. Linguistically, like paraliminals, it is a work of art. I don't agree with all of it, but they are providing a lot of value.

The cost of the course, 12 CDs, is $325 sans discount. That's around $27.00 per CD. Pricey, but not insane. You're getting seriously good information and several paraliminals. You're getting material presented in many different ways. Normal "lecture" style, the "fast finish" mode, and through paraliminals. Even with the discount, I felt a little "youch!" in my wallet when I got it, but I am glad I did.

Contrast that to $80 per cd. Abundance of Life would be $960 for the non-deluxe version. I would never in a million years buy it for that price. I would stop buying LSC products if they charged that much for the information. I'd look at them as if they were money grubbing pigs, more interested in money than sharing and helping people. I mean, think of the amount of people they'd alienate.

I just don't know, Smeagle. I am really happy for you and your progress, but it still does not change the way I feel about it. If you brought me someone who cured their cancer through Holosync I'd still feel the same way ... even worse. I'd feel like these SOBs are more interested in getting money than providing people with the means to help themselves! And, in fact, that is the case. Why else charge so much for something that costs little to produce?

Avatar only $3,500, huh? So having money to burn is the same as being dedicated? That's ridiculous. You may believe that reasoning, but, seriously, being able to afford it is not equivalent to being dedicated. That's BS.

It's $3,500 because people are willing to pay that much. I believe their product inducing altered states probably has a lot to do with the willingess of people to pay those kinds of prices. More than a little indoctrination is going on.

Wow. I am simply amazed. The more I hear about the behavior of this company, the more I hate them. They truly are money grubbing pigs. Jeez.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 26, 2004).]






#15276 10/27/04 02:54 AM
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"I did also an Avatar course which costs now
$ 3.000 - 3.500 for a ten day course. The reason these spiritual courses are so high
priced is that they want only people who are realy commited."

I certainly do not believe that a high price
causes more commitment. In a discussion with an Avatar Master he come to this conclusion.

However, most people certainly think about it
a lot before doing an Avatar course and there are less spontanious buyers. Also right
in the middle of the course the is a decision
point where the student can decide to continue or not. (if he does not get results)

If not then he will get his money back.

I still think that babayada is on a vendetta even if he calls it now a moral point. Otherwise why bother. People are inteligent enough to decide what is good for them or not.








#15277 10/27/04 04:30 AM
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Vendetta?

Vendetta a la Miriam Webster online:

1 : BLOOD FEUD
2 : an often prolonged series of retaliatory, vengeful, or hostile acts or exchange of such acts <waged a personal vendetta against those who opposed his nomination>

I suppose, in terms of the second definition I do have a vendetta against centerpointe, yes. But I think the word carries connotations in the way that you are using it that I do not think are correct.

I do not have some personal grievance against Bill Harris. He didn't kill my parents when I was five. I haven't been in a cave, putting on tights and pretending I am a bat or some other scary animal, and I do not entertain revenge fantasies against him or his company ... aside from the one about the marketing that I posted earlier and was called "sick" for.

Really, does someone have to be warped in some way to feel very strongly about a company that is ripping people off?

The core of it is a mental image I have of Bill Harris and others in Centerpointe enjoying the money and secretly thinking that everyone of his customers is a sucker.

That is the crux of it.

Let us say that one of your friends makes a remarkable discovery about human kind and the human condition that could really help people alleviate much of the suffering of their lives and add immeasurable enjoyment. Lets say that the method required a little bit of money to do. Now lets say this friend starts giving it to people ... but only the ones that pay him $2000.00 for it.

What would you think of your friend?

Lets also say he comes up with MORE discoveries and starts learning about the discoveries others have made and starts repackaging those. Say he starts selling those for even more.

You might start to suspect that this friend is a selfish, money-grubbing pig and that when he ups the prices he's performing an experiment on just how much people are willing to pay.

Ok, Centerpointe cares? Lets see them lower their prices.

Let's assume that Holosync and the Centerpointe philosophy really is the schizniat when it comes to personal development.

There is poverty and crime in the world, isn't there? With all the money Centerpointe is making, heck, why not start programs for the poor, those in jail, those who REALLY need this kind of stuff. Are they doing that? Let me in on it, cause I don't think they are.

Truth is, they don't really care. Sure, some staff members probably do. But by and large they want your freaking money.

Bill Harris might be so friendly because it may help him sleep at night ... actually believe he is being helpful and not a greedy, money worshiping parasite. Also, it helps to tend the crops. They'll yield more.

A truly spiritual person and organization would act *very* differently than Centerpointe. When several businesses started sending me Centerpointe material I knew something fishy was up. It's amazing. I don't know how they do it or what they are doing. I wonder if they pay companies to let them send material "from" other companies?

I don't know.

But, really, I don't know anyone personally from Centerpointe. What you're seeing here is moral outrage at greed. Perhaps your unwillingness to see it as such reveals something about you rather than something about me, hmmm?

I go on about corporations like this, too. You should have seen me at my last job when they were laying off people left and right in inter-related companies for which I provided tech support. Greed greed greed.

Oh yeah, about money back guarantees:

Why do so many companies offer them? Because they know that it is human nature not to take advantage of it.

Centerpointe knows damn well that when someone makes an investment like that in time and money, they are NOT going to ask for a refund.

Why? Ego is one thing. No one likes to admit that he has been a fool. Another is perceived value. People will, in fact, perceive that they have gotten value out of most courses and products offered by most companies, and will feel some guilt when thinking about sending materials back for a full refund. Also, there is a feeling that "this object is mine" when you purchase something, hence there is a feeling of loss when you give it back for a refund. Also, there may be a feeling of personal failure.

Companies know full and well, like Casinos, that there are acceptable losses. Offering a full refund after a period of time is one of those. Don't think they are being fair and caring, they are not. GREED motivates money back refunds, both ways. It instills in the consumer the idea that they are getting something for nothing. It removes the inhibition against making a large purchase.

Man, if half of what I am hearing here is really how some of you think, you are seriously conditioned consumers. I admit that I am as susceptible as the rest of you, but I realize and admit it when I see that I've been a sucker. It helps me to wake up sometimes and say, ‚ÄúUhhh, no thanks.‚ÄĚ

Don't be a sucker. I mean, it's one thing to say, ‚ÄúYeah, I've taken a punch ... but the end result is worth it to me, but, yeah, to an extent I've been a sucker.‚ÄĚ It's another to buy into marketing crapola (even to the point where you defend it!) hook, line, and sinker. Being a sucker and not even being aware of it, lying to yourself about it, is seriously bad.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 27, 2004).]






#15278 10/27/04 09:15 AM
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Although I have had great results from Holosync, I do feel that I have been had. There is no possible justification for the prices charged. The people who need the help most, are being priced out of the market. It reminds me of the Scientologists who charge outrageous prices, use heavyweight marketing and celebrity endorsements.
Holosync as Bill Harris, fairly, says is one of many ways which can aid personal growth. It is not the only way.
Compare Holosync with Gary Craig (www.emofree.com) who gives away tons of information on his website, and must barely cover costs for his video CD sets. He even grants buyers permission to make so many copies.
I do not deny anyone the right to make money, but there is no way that Holosync can justify their prices either practically or morally.







#15279 10/27/04 11:16 AM
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I don't think Centerpointe would ever come up with something like auditing protocol R2-45. As much as I dislike Centerpointe, it's sort of like comparing P.T. Barnum with Hitler.

The greed is the same, but basic human decency is still there.

But don't feel too bad, Nick. I am sure you got a lot of benefits, and there ARE means by which you can continue your progress without paying an arm and a leg.

You'll never fall prey to the same tricks again, either. You're wiser.

I got the Awakening Prologue despite years and years of simply throwing away the Centerpointe material. I would always think, "Sounds good, but man ... they are charging ridiculous prices. This has GOT to be a scam."

Later on, a friend of mine who knew Bill Harris had a Centerpointe tape. I told him I'd always been curious about them. I listened and it really had a profound effect on me. My friend told me that they had made special recordings just for him and that the tape I listened to was a really deep one.

After getting the Awakening Prologue and listening to it for a while, I read over their material. I read more and more, and a sinking feeling came over me. I realized what they were doing and that I had been had. I determined to be vocal about it (hence my vendetta and alter ego as Anti-Centerpointe Man) from then on.

But we've all been had in some way.

One thing I do now, before paying a lot for something new, is look for negative opinions and criticism about it on the net. There usually is.

I go back and forth between the pro and con sources, am much better informed, and then make my own, more informed, decision.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 27, 2004).]






#15280 10/27/04 02:21 PM
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A tip for The Abundance for Life folks watching this thread. This is an excellent topic to apply the Inquiry Process on.

Email me if you would like tips on how to practice on this topic.

Alex






#15281 10/27/04 06:48 PM
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In terms of sponsporing moral relativity, maybe not such a good idea, but in terms of personal emotional freedom, maybe a good one.

Notions, while not always 100% "positive," can serve useful functions for individuals.

Is it absolutely true that Bill Harris is scamming people? Well, I am not God, so I cannot say that it is universally true. Is my thinking scamming me? Sometimes, yes.

All in all, my decision about it is, well, I enjoy discussing the issues. I enjoy seeing what comes out of myself and others as we butt heads. I enjoy the thrill of both positive and negative emotions involved in the dialogue.

My mom and I have friendly arguments a lot. We disagree with each other. My dad leaves the room because he can't "stand it." We, supposedly the ones being contentious with each other, just look at each other and laugh. The process actually deepens our relationship. We know where each other stands, and can feel each other more clearly by establishing where the boundaries are.

If we're all sitting down for dinner, we'll stop so that he can eat in peace. But in contexts like these, forums, I don't think of it as inappropriate.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 27, 2004).]






#15282 11/14/04 11:54 PM
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The whole issue of HS has turned to the cost and making a system for free now.

One thing about HS is that you can get to a point to view your belief system about money.

If you believe something costs to much and you don't have the money, it will cost to much and you will never have the money.

I actually thought HS was pretty cheap for all the levels you get and the service and support that Centerpointe offers.

Bill always answered my questions even when I was upset with some crappy service and it was resolved. Centerpointe is probably the only organization that didn't get defensive when I went off.

Education that benefits your life is priceless, it is worth it to pay the price.

take a look at what you believe about money.
Maybe make a few changes in them and work on accepting this new belief system.

If you want to make alot of money become a Marketer. That's what Jack Canfield and his whole group does and they all make alot of money for their efforts.

The money is out there and you can attract it in greater and greater quantities if you have the right belief and value system. If money is a dirty thing to you and rich people are to be despised, I don't think you'll be having a very good lifestyle no matter what course or path you follow.

Holosync has worked very well for me in addition to using Spring Forest Qigong and Sedona.

Jeff








#15283 11/15/04 05:42 PM
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This has been an enlightening discussion! I am grateful to be able to participate with such insightful and brilliant minds.

My take is that these are companies, operating in a capitalistic world. The consumers have a choice whether to partake of their products and services, or not. It comes down to what value the consumer assigns for these products.

In India, the way it is generally perceived is that one shold not have to pay for spiritual teachings. If one desires, one may "donate" a small amount of money to the organization, which goes towards the maintenance and upkeep of the facilities. In fact, the more authentic the teacher, or organization, the less one should have to spend in terms of money. One can volunteer their time or energy towards helping and maintaining the orgainzation.

But we definitely are talking about two completely different worlds ....






#15284 11/15/04 07:59 PM
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Framed another way, we live in a world in which men and women are constantly vying for companionship.

A woman has the right to reject a man, even if he lies to her or even coerces her, and the other way around. So, since it is a matter of choice, is it really so bad for me to lie to a woman in order to get her into bed? I mean, she can make up her own mind whether or not she wants to continue with an affair based on deception.

Of course it's wrong.

The whole open market argument doesn't hold water with me. The philosophy that its an open market so anything goes is a pretty bad one. History has proven that this laissez faire attitude leads to exploitation and tyranny.

Also, let me make it clear that I do not envy anyone their success. I am glad that people, through their own endeavors, become wealthy. What bothers me is when they become wealthy through exploitation and deception.







#15285 11/17/04 06:57 AM
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I have a friend who travels eastern europe alot and he has a great distaste for bankers. In the same breathe he complains about the lack of food and creature comforts in eastern europe, the corruption, etc.

They will never have anything until they make it safe for "money people" to come in and build an economy.

If you don't like the current system of the "Free Market" then build something better. No one is stopping you but yourself.

That all these people like LSC and Holosync and Sedona are "marketing" their stuff and making money at it, I think is great. If their stuff is good they will be around along time. If their stuff is junk then the market will flush them out (people will flush them out). It is true that there are some clunkers out there but they don't last.

I think you fight a system because you don't understand how to use it and don't want to put out the effort to learn. Alot of people want change but they want someone else to do the work. If you want the work done then people charge for it.

I like personal growth tools all packaged up and ready to use. I don't want to build the machine anymore, I just want to use it for what it was designed for. It saves alot of time and aggravation.

Also knowing what you want really helps when you go shopping. Kinda like picking software for your computer.

Jeff








#15286 11/16/04 07:08 PM
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Also; lying to women to bed them. You know you lied. How do you feel when you know you lied? Did you ever try telling a women the truth? That you want to just go to bed with them because maybe they smell nice? At worst case you would probably get a giggle out of them and they would think about it.

I think if you figure out how you would like a women to talk to you to do the same thing, you might find it works both ways. And you'd be telling the truth.








#15287 11/16/04 09:45 PM
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The free market is ok with me, Jeff. It has flaws, yeah, but I think it's better than communism or all out socialism. Maybe something between what we have and something a bit more socialist would work better, I don't know.

My point was about the notion that free choice in a free market = whatever a company does is ok. That's BS.

I think we are both in agreement that being honest about your intentions in relationships is a good thing and can yield surprising results. I know that from personal experience. I can remember the first time I said, "Look, all I want right now is sex and fun" and got an "Ok," I was floored.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited November 16, 2004).]






#15288 11/17/04 07:42 AM
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I understand your concern but if you look at growth industries, such as computers were several years ago. The technology was so far ahead of the laws that it has been a scramble for the regulators to try and catch the developing technology.

At some point I expect, in this personal growth industry, we'll probably have to have permits and security clearances just to practise whatever our calling is and have imposed limits. It happens everywhere else.
Sorry you can only get so smart or be so happy. You only qualify for a level 2 Happiness because of your age( or whatever).

Right now we have this economic system that is used to create wealth. It is just a system that works, maybe it isn't the rolls royce of systems but it works. I don't know that making a different system is better than becoming fluent with the one we have.

So getting back to Holosync and it's rules for evolutionary change. When the system gets to a point of not functioning as designed and breaks down, it tends to reinvent itself to compensate for the new complex, whatever is thrown at it, thing.

When it does this, it adds alot of confusion into the place for awhile until the system operator gets use to it. In this way we as individuals and groups grow and change being able to handle alot more stuff thrown at us.

Like beautiful women.

Jeff






#15289 11/18/04 10:00 PM
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And to add on a bit regarding other courses being marketed and Holosync being called "The End".

I think that "The End" is a fitting name for Holosync when it comes to meditation pracise.
At this point in time, it is not possible for anyone to go to a deeper meditative state
than what is offered by Holosync. It is possible to slant ones attention in deep meditation to get different results but this is not the meditative state only application of the mind.

Holosync meditation is not educational and makes no such claims that any knowledge will be conveyed.

I think that Bill recommends courses that he feels would enhance your life experience. He has stated most of the time that he receives no monetary compensation for recommending these courses. These are courses that he has done and found benefit in, take it or leave it.

I'm waiting for the telepathy course, I could use it alot more than voice lessens.






#15290 11/19/04 01:15 AM
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Ohhh, boy. Consider the pot good and stirred by that one.

"At this point in time, it is not possible for anyone to go to a deeper meditative state
than what is offered by Holosync."

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff.... Care to share your research on that?

Of course, you're going to have to study every single human being on the planet and every existing approach, so I'll try and be patient.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited November 18, 2004).]






#15291 11/19/04 05:43 AM
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OK, let me clarify this: That can be measured. Show me something else out there that can be demonstrated or measured in some way that can go deeper. To my knowledge nothing can because it drops off the perception range.

I have heard of lower levels of brain waves but so far no one has been able to clearly demonstrate them and it is probably operator error that was really behind it.

Yes there is the yogi whom can stop his heartbeat but did he stop his brainwave?

Would you agree that deep meditation is related and measureable by brain wave activity or is there another system you choose?

Jeff






#15292 11/19/04 03:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffdengr:

I have heard of lower levels of brain waves but so far no one has been able to clearly demonstrate them and it is probably operator error that was really behind it.


Or the fact that the equipment being used is currently only designed to look for the frequencies that are know.

Anyone see Jurastic Park? Once the computer found what it was programed to look for it stopped looking.

Do you prefer Tea or Coffee or perhaps neither.

Even a begger holding out his cup for a few coins is marketing his point of view on the world. We can argue that his approach is right or wrong and perhaps I could want him to change it to suit my prefered paradigm tht there be no beggers in the world.

The fact is, his business is not my business, I can only change that which is my business. As for the begger, it simply is, what it is. I can choose to stay in the trance and demand that it be changed and argue till everyone agrees with me that the begger should not be there. While I may be swayed on the idea of right or wrong... It will remain a part of my trance as long as I try to make his business my business. It's my business whether I give him any coins.

Alex






#15293 11/20/04 06:38 AM
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That's a good metaphor, Alex.

I'll take it to heart.







#15294 11/19/04 07:05 PM
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I believe I said something like "At this point in Time". Not there there isn't new developements in the future, I hope there is.
I was kinda hoping Babayada would prove me wrong so I might learn something new.

Aloha






#15295 11/19/04 11:41 PM
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I am amazed at this discussion. Who is trying to convince who of what? Gather the troops. Win at all costs. Please read Bill Harris's latest news letter. He covers the attitude of this thread very well.

Be well.

Zendar


Frodo02
Feel free to email me to discuss Holosync. I just recently purchased Flowering level (zendar242@comcast.net)








#15296 11/20/04 03:02 AM
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You're going to have to prove yourself wrong, Jeff.

Really, I think the whole emphasis on "deep" in terms of brainwave patterns is pretty (for the sake of word-play) shallow. There's more to it than that, I think.

I do not think that profound "deep" experiences all share the delta brainwave in common. There is no science I know of to back me up here, just a guess.

I have found zazen to bring me deeper in terms of intensity. Who was it that wrestled with an angel? Ezekiel? Well, that's what zazen was like for me. In a sense, the depth of that experience was way more than what I experienced through any other technique.

I have read several places that the binaural beat frequency does not always bring the brain into the same state as the difference between the two tones. Does holosync really bring the majority of the brain down into 2 hertz?

Is that what is considered "deep"? Is that beneficial? I don't think we know enough about the brain to really comment on that. I mean, I suspect even neurologists wouldn't be able to comment on that.








#15297 11/20/04 04:40 AM
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Zendar,

Are you talking about the article about the recent election?

I read it and enjoyed it very much. I love reading Alan Watts, and I think you're dead on with what is going on here. Its the dance of yin and yang, that's all.

We get caught up in it. We become passionate about it. And isn't that what its for in the first place?

It is my hope that this discussion has caused no one any real suffering. I know my feathers get ruffled, and, at times, I do my best to ruffle the feathers of others, but, honestly, its fun.

This isn't to say that I do not take what I've said seriously. I do, and I have said it in earnest, but I can also appreciate the fact that, yes, it is a game, and yes, its all about individual experience anyway.

I appreciate both you and Alex pointing this out in your own ways. I helps me take a step back and shake my head.

Of course, like with a dream I'll get back into it and forget. But I think each phase is important and complements each other (yin and yang again!).

Anyway, namaste.







#15298 11/21/04 07:17 PM
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I'm cross posting this link from a discussion on the photoreading forum.
http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=0007D716-71A1-1179-AF8683414B7F0000

All music, basically, is psychoacoustic. I wonder how much music out there available for 8 dollars from a bargain bin can have as profound an effect as hemisync, holosync, awakened minds, or any of the others?

I know Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here can definitely send you places.







#15299 11/21/04 07:43 PM
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Hasn't the music of Bach and Beethoven been proven to have a profound effect on the mind? It's possible that listening to some of this music everyday can have a greater impact than Hemisync, Holosync, and the others that are mentioned on this forum. I'm interested in knowing if anyone has ever done any daily listening of the music of Bach or Beethoven and what kind of impact did it have on you?

[This message has been edited by bhenry (edited November 21, 2004).]






#15300 11/22/04 10:44 AM
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There have been studies on the effects of classical music. The effect was found to be temporary. I am no classical music expert;but certain passages of Mozart make me feel joyous. Some of Bachs pieces imbue me with a strong feeling of calmess. These feelings don't last but they are very pleasurable.
After several years of listening to Holosync I have changed. I am far less reactive. I am more self aware. I recently had a six week break from listening to Holosync and there was no fall off in these results. Holosync is in a different league to other soundtracks.
Notwithstanding this I do feel that Holosync is way overpriced. Also be prepared for the long haul. Incidentally learn the Sedona Method (the book is cheap) it really helps when dealing with overwhelm.






#15301 11/22/04 03:31 PM
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Do you think there is a qualitative difference to how you listen to holosync vs. Mozart or Bach or whoever?

That is, people will sit and quietly listen to holosync via headphones, but will listen to Bach in the background while doing other activities.

I am familiar with the Mozart effect and how the increase in IQ is temporary. It's amazing to me that there is a change in IQ from listening to music at all.






#15302 11/23/04 10:20 AM
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Good point Babayada. When I listen to Holosync I am meditating, 100% focused on the sound. I don't genrally listen to classical music when I am busy, but I certainly do not listen with the same intensity. If you are feeling down, listen to the Mozart composition used in the movie 'Trading Places'. (Told you I was'nt an expert.)It will soon raise your mood.






#15303 11/25/04 04:03 AM
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Babayada,
Thanks for the info regarding used HS cd's and bwgn.exe. I'm currently enrolled in the program(Purifying Level I). Were you ever a participant? I'm becoming disenchanted with the program as none of the promised benefits have materialized and I'm already 5 levels in! I'm putting off calling their help-line because I'm sure all I'll hear is "keep trying" before they try to sell me the next level. Do you have any suggestions on any other products that actually deliver? Any info you provide would be most helpful. Thanks!

Mindsurfer






#15304 11/30/04 10:22 PM
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MindSurfer,

My bias is towards using traditional meditation techniques. I am certainly not the most experienced in this regard. Shr33m has a wealth of experience in this area, and his advice would probably be better than mine.

That being said, pick up The Relaxation Response by Herbert Benson or one of the works of Patricia Carrington on Clinical Standardized Meditation.

Just because something is touted as an amazingly effective modern technology does not mean that it is any better than tried and true methods of meditation or even that it will give you what it promises to deliver.

Just investigate various forms of meditation and find one that fits for you.

I've gone from using a mantra to simply being mindful of a mental pulse that occurs within me. I found that the mantra would always sort of be digested by my mind and end up as a sort of pulse. So, I just do directly to that pulse and be mindful of it. After a while, the pulse goes away and I am simply mindful of whatever is going on in an acceptant manner.

I don't think you need to rely on tapes. And I think that the notion that binaural beat CDs or tapes are better than traditional methods is a bogus one.

Traditional meditation taught by whom? What forms? Because someone has had trouble with a form of meditation and found holosync to be better does not mean that holosync is better than traditional meditation techniques because it is a "better" or "more precise" technology. It just means one kind of meditation didn't work for someone (for whatever reasons) and that holosync did. Ok. I would think that users of holosync in some cases will find themselves graduating from it to more traditional, established methods with a long and rich history.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited November 30, 2004).]






#15305 12/06/04 05:16 AM
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I've also meditated for 20+ years, and living within a strong inner self has added much to my journey. HS adds even more, yet it is simply one tool of many that enhance our quality of life.

However, I admit to being somwhat puzzled, babayada, for why you continue with HS when you critize it almost endlessly. If it's useless, why bother? If it's okay, why the rant?

Also, what's this about Bill Harris ripping us off? Who forces you to buy, use, and continue to buy his products? It's starting to look like it's time for some truth telling and the placement of personal responsibility exactly where it belongs.







#15306 12/07/04 09:12 PM
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DCO,

I enjoy the back and forth of the banter and feel strongly about the subject.

EDIT:

Oh, and I misunderstood ... I don't use holosync. I used it for about 6 months and then stopped after I realized I was going to be taken for a ride by continuing.


[This message has been edited by babayada (edited December 15, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited December 15, 2004).]






#15307 12/17/04 11:48 AM
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It's so important to be realistic about personal growth programs, no matter how convincing their material is. I don't think skepticism is necessary, but a healthy level of critical thinking is likely to save anyone alot of time and alot of money when it comes to these sorts of programs.
I've just bought Awakening Prologue and I've been using it for only a few days. I had it recommended by three people independently of each other before I really started to look into it for myself, and once I did, I read over as much material as I could get my hands on before I handed over the cash. From what I know about the brain, and what I understand about meditation, I have summised that Centerpointe are really leaders in the field. I truly believe that I've bought the best product of its kind. I've persevered with a few different kinds of meditation in the past, finding that a Buddhist mantra type meditation was the most effective for me. I know when meditation is 'working' when I feel a sense of elation, almost a literal, physical upliftment. My body lightens, feeling almost like a balloon, and I tend to see light in front of my eyes. Where I only got flashes of this feeling with mantra meditation in the midst of hours of difficult concentration and relative discomfort, I have to say that the Awakening Prologue CD's get me there almost instantly, and I'm not even started with the Immersion Phase yet. Very impressive stuff.
However, like most people on the forum evidently, I'm not too impressed with the marketing strategy Centerpointe have used and continue to use, though its clear that it works since the company continues to expand. I'm also not impressed with the list of benefits attributed to Holosync technology: increased happiness, prosperity, capacity for intimacy, etc... While I agree that meditation can help to make all of these potentials real, meditation is not a formulaic guarantor to 'success'. Rather, I think its something that needs to be humbly viewed as a part of an entire way of living. Periods of deep relaxation are useless unless you decide to really do something with the active time. Reaching theta and delta states is useless if you continue to choose dysfunctional paths, beat yourself up, talk yourself down, etc... Where I believe, and have experienced, that Holosync technology makes 'meditation' far easier, the idea that it's 'The End': the one and only program required for healing and betterment, is a crock. There IS no one and only program, there's no answer, there are only ever tools: tools that need to be tried and tested to see what works best.
I'm also in partial agreement about how much it costs to do the program: given the cost to the company, the price is utterly exorbitant. A bit of an ethical quandary, really. My solution is that once I'm done with Awakening Prologue, I'm going to sell it to a friend for slightly cheaper, who'll sell it on once she's finished, and we'll do the same with the rest of the program. It could ultimately go on forever! (I'm unsure about how the higher levels work, with the personalised affirmations etc...? So unsure about whether we could puchase the whole program in this way, but I like the idea of it) Despite the quandary, I think its important to keep in mind that Centerpointe are in a tricky market, especially now that its so easy to simply burn a CD and pass it on. This, and the rather specialised market, means that Centerpointe probably aren't making quite the billions we think they are, though there's still no real excuse for charging so much.
For the moment I'm just enjoying it, and learning everything I can. Bit concerned about the new thread re: beta brain waves and brain frying, etc... though!!!!






#15308 01/20/05 09:14 PM
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Hi,

My two cents' worth about all that's been going on in ths rather long thread.

THE END or not THE END :
I think they simply gave up this name as it had bad connotations attached to it. Might have seemed a good idea in the beginning : "THE END of your search for a guru", for example.

Regarding the Price :
Has anyone here studied marketing ?
I'm a consultant, and I have to tell you that from a professional point of view, Bill Harris's strategy is superb ! If his goal is to make as many people as possible enter the program (for whatever reason, be they totally altruistic, like "Let's bring relief to as many people as possible", or totally greedy, as "let's get as many people's money as possible"), then he is really doing it extremely well.

Here is the chief point of my argument : what is free has no value !

The meaning is : I'll attach strong value, and therefore be very committed to going through it all, to a program that I've paid dear money for, and I'll try for 10 days and ultimately forget about when I don't get instant results a program that I got for free.
The ONE big problem with Holosync is that the meditation is so effective that it brings a LOT of overwhelm before important shifts happen in the way we see and manage life, so you need a LOT of motivation to persevere and go through it nevertheless. The fact that you've paid a lot for the program gives you a big part of that motivation.
(BTW : to me this chaos and reorganization stuff is NOT pseudo-scientific baloney. I've experienced it EXACTLY as it is described years before knowing about Holosync. At that time it involved an enormous emotional crisis, and personal work that was forced upon me by extreme unhappiness about my life.)

All in all, I think BillHarris is doing things the right way. If he gave away the program for what it costs, he wouldn't get as many customers as he does now. That's one of the many paradoxes of modern economics science : in many cases, the classical law of supply and demand doesn't apply : You don't get more customers by lowering your price, you actually get more customers by raising your price, because a high price point creates superior perceived value in the eye of the consumer.

Cheers to all,

Erwan






#15309 01/20/05 10:13 PM
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Hi again,

Lots of people wrote about he Speech Improvement course cross-advertized by Bill Harris. I'm interested in that. Could anyone post the directions to the website of the company that sells it ?

Thanks,

Erwan






#15310 01/21/05 12:13 AM
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What is free has no value?

Completely absurd.

Tell that to the open source community, who have been collectively producing high quality products for the general public for years and years, free of charge.

It could be argued that what is free is of infinite value.

Greed has its uses, but so does curiosity, doing something for its own sake, generosity, and sharing.

What you do for your own reasons, not simply motivated by a contrived sense of needing to because of perceived value (arbitrarily created by the manufacturer much like certain cards in games like Pokemon), is best. Internal motivation from a true perception of value is always best.

I've noticed that people in the marketing business are so awash in their own BS that they start to believe it. It helps, I guess, to think you're doing someone a favor when you're bending them over.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited January 20, 2005).]






#15311 01/21/05 12:34 AM
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Erwan,
What is free has no value??

On the contrary, "The best things in life are free." You have it bassackwards.






#15312 01/23/05 08:21 AM
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I am a new holosync listener and am pleased to have found this thread. Thank you all for the discussion.

I agree with the marketing critique put forth by babayada and others. What would the budda sell and would he use recycled paper to print his materials?

That said, I am having results from the short time I've been using the cds. Some of what I'm seeing is intriguing, like my cessation of nail biting. Other changes are just plain weird. My hair is parting in the opposite direction for example. This brings me to my question.

Does anyone know if there are any dangers to using the Holosync cds and forcing your brain into a delta pattern? Is there anyone on this list with access to a neurologist that they could talk too? Is anyone else concerned about risk?






#15313 01/31/05 03:45 PM
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Ok, "What is free has no value" seems to have ticked off some reactions.

Let's put it another way :
"if you give it for free, no one will think it has any value".

Look at the open source community : they've battled for YEARS before getting any results agianst microsoft !
It's only now that several companies like Redhat and Mandrake are actually selling their open-source programs, that these are getting some attention.
Of course what they're selling is not the software itself, but the service they provide : integration, security, etc...

Does anyone see a parrallel with Centerpointe here ?
Of course the Centerpointe CDs could be re-created for free by anyone with an ounce of technical knowledge. But you wouldn't be getting their support, which is the service they sell , which is extremely valuable in making the most of Holosync.

"What is free has no value" was not meant to be a moral statement, it's just plain old mass-market reality !

Erwan






#15314 02/01/05 05:16 AM
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Yes Erwan, I agree with you.

What is free may have a value but for most people it is not wanted. For instance I offered the holosync Awakening Prologue to some relatives and friends. For Free.

So far nobody wanted it.

Also, I seriously doubt that the self ceated holosync cd's have the same impact as the one from Centerpointe. Bill Harris told us on a retreat that he would not reveal what's
exactly on the cd or how they are made, because this is a trade secret.

Cheers,








#15315 02/01/05 05:23 AM
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Redhat still offers its programs for free.
http://fedora.redhat.com

I am not exactly sure what you mean when you say it took the open source community years against battling Microsoft before it got anywhere.

The term "Open Source" is not as well known as the name "Microsoft" for various reasons. And I do not know, exactly, what criteria you are using for success.

The Open Source community as a collective project has become more and more successful over the years because their philosophy and approach work. It's more about mutual evolution and improving code through open discourse and sharing than financial success, although financial success can be a by-product.

I agree with the point about perceived value. Sometimes people will not buy a product when it is cheap. If the price is arbitrarily raised, then people perceive it as more valuable and will start to buy it.

The prices of Centerpointe's products, however, are way above this point. I think selling each level for $100 or $150 each would be more than sufficient (even though that price is still ridiculously high considering price of production, which is probably very low). That is, without having you purchase the whole set of levels in order to get a fairly decent price.

I will say that Centerpointe offers a superior product. I've played around with binaural beats at low frequencies and low carrier waves with different sound effects. I was unable to achieve the effects that their product has.

I agree with Frodo2 who, I think, said that Awakened Minds is not as good. After using and comparing, it just doesn't give you the same depth of experience.

I simply think it's a shame that they are charging way too much for their products.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited January 31, 2005).]






#15316 02/01/05 06:45 AM
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Babayada;

Just as a side bar to the price thing, Bill Harris has said that the sound technology for getting the sound outside of the head did cost him alot of money, alot more than he wanted to admit. He did develope the audiofonix to replace Bud Lowry's technology because Bud was a one man show and getting up in age.

In my own work I believe that worrying about price is their business. If I didn't think the product gave me something I wanted I'd get something else that did. Because somebody would come up with a better product eventually. But waiting around for Microsoft to come up with XP when it had only developed MS DOS and dropping the price in the mean time, it just doesn't work that way.

I think Bill Harris is a straight up guy. He's always answered my questions although I don't ask business and money questions because I really don't care. He doesn't know anything about the shipping business and sailing the seven seas. I feel comfortable in this already.

They claim to surround yourself with people that are smarter than you are about the subjects your are dealing with. Bill knows alot more about this than I do. I have no problem with that. I have more of a problem if he just went away with holosync.

At least I have a choice on this right now. To holosync or not to holosync that is the question. I choice to holosync at this price.

Jeff








#15317 02/01/05 06:50 AM
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OK , Really, I choose to Holosync at this price.






#15318 02/21/05 03:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by babayada:
By contrast:

BWGEN.exe is free. There's your binaural beat tones.

There .wav files prepared to be looped containing environmental effects that are free. There's your pretty rain to listen to.


Hello Everyone,

Please forgive me if this is a naive question, but do the Holosync CDs just contain binaural beats and environmental effects, or is there also some proprietary technology involved as well?

I don't have any agenda, either pro or anti Centerpointe, I'm just curious!

Best wishes to you all,

TS






#15319 03/15/05 07:24 AM
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Hi guys...I also just started Holosync Prologue.I bought it because ,frankly speaking,of the barage claims of being the ultimate tool and of course the "bribe".

Iam grateful for this discussion because I can be able to check out for myself without buying the hype and claims of Holosync.
Another point I want to make is that from there original site I did not get much information that there would be more to come after!upto Level four.
But I still have time to return it back.And would I be able to do that?Of course I can do that.
I agree with Babayada that the guarantee is a psychological tool they use it on you.I recall there was another product called to do with Energy Meridians and claimed to remove all the blockages and limiting beliefs to do with abundance.It was was selling around the neat price of 180 dollars and had only and e download of thirty pages.

I was one of the top ones who gave the utmost effort on it and gave my feedback constantly in her Arthurs roundTable as she used to call it.In the end I realised that it was all encashing on EFt.I asked for my guarantee .She gave it to me after sending me an abusive Mail that I might as well dole money from the other members!And she cut thrity dollars from the original amount withouht any reason.But my friend who was also involved in it did not ask for it.He was too nice for that.And she closed the Guarantee after that.
My conclusion after that incident?The gurantees are not for you to return the items but just Marketing Strategy.
There all kind of glossy claims out there for people to push their products and one has to be wary.

bye all.






#15320 03/15/05 09:33 PM
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Hi,

I've seen others return AP and have had their money refunded from Centerpointe. It doesn't seem to be a problem. I think Bill said there was a 2% return rate, which I suppose with a 12 month warranty, isn't too bad.

Also you don't get any return agreement on the higher levels but I know from experience if you happened to have lost or damaged a CD in some way, Centerpointe generally replace it no worries! :-)








#15321 03/30/05 05:41 PM
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Hi Tecnoseeker,

I posted an answer to your question on Page 3 of the thread "Reading Recommendation for Holosynch Users"

Cheers,

Erwan






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I found this old post and was wondering if the codes course you took still exists and what it was all about? I was thinking of taking avatar as well but the codes course sounds interesting.

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