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You can doubt something like hell and still achieve it. Count on it.

History, including your personal history, is full of examples where people doubted but still kept on. In fact, many of our most compelling and dramatic stories are about people who faced challenges they didn't know they could overcome, yet did. History, including your personal history, is full of examples to the contrary.

Reality is what persists despite your beliefs to the contrary, despite what you may think about it, despite your "mindset."

You do not need to believe in order to achieve. People achieve results they do not believe they can all the time, and these people may fail to notice because they fail to believe, yet they achieve all the same.

If you doubt yourself too much, your energy will be dispersed, of course. You may be hesitant, there are things you may not try. Yet if you are absolutely convinced you know you can, and you have a certain idea as to how, you may not be open to other options or feedback to the contrary. You may end up hitting your head against a brick wall. You may be able to simply walk around it.

Doubt. Consider. Think. Ruminate. You don't have to mindlessly believe.

Try. See what happens. Experiment. You do not have to have your mind ruled by programmed in foregone conclusions about what is, what you can do.

People have limits. Some limits can be overcome, some can't. Try and see.

But whatever you do, don't neglect, ignore, or shut off your mind with new age crap that is selling itself as the magical map to truth and success. There isn't any.

So go ahead and doubt. If it is worth it, try to get what you want, and learn from your experiences. You don't have to believe, but you may need the guts to get out there and try.







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quote:
You do not need to believe in order to achieve. People achieve results they do not believe they can all the time, and these people may fail to notice because they fail to believe, yet they achieve all the same.

You argue on the basis that all people have the same dreams. In fact different people have different dreams.
So one result can make one people happy and fulfilled while the same result doesn't make another person fulfilled. What the difference between the two persons?
Their mindset.






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Brutha,

I am not assuming that everyone has the same dreams. That is your presumption about my point of view. If you read my message again and assume that I am arguing from the basis that people have different dreams and different criteria for their achievement, you may understand my point as I intended to make it. In other words, this is a case where changing your mindset may help.

The difference between people is more than their mindset. Their bodies are different. One portion of food may satisfy one where it leaves the other longing for more. One kind of food is just the ticket where the same food is found disgusting by another. Biology and factors other than mindset come into the mix.

If you are talking about the notion that you can make a hell of heaven or a heaven of hell because thinking makes it so, then, sure, I agree. The mind can make one thing seem like another, for a time... until reality comes a-knocking. I repeat, reality is what continues to persist despite your mindset.

If you push your standards low enough, you can feel satisfied by anything. But this is changing your dreams to meet the situation, not keeping your dream constant and changing your mindset to acquire what you envision in that dream.

My beef is with the notion that if you just fiddle with your ideology, your dreams will magically manifest. That's just plain BS.

It's the argument made by many people selling their religions. I had Buddhists argue that once they had become Buddhist that so many good things came their way. Magickal thinking. It's the same BS as the mindset argument. Just believe this way, and you'll have abundance for your entire life.

No magical mindset will rid you of the necessity of going out and trying, learning, making mistakes, and generally doing what it takes to make your dream, whatever that is, a reality.

The downside of the whole "just change your mindset" thing is that people may buy into it, do it, fail to achieve, and then blame themselves, when they were just acting on bad information. Or, worse, someone who is just wanting to be told they can get something for nothing has the erroneous belief behind that want reinforced (at the profit of another individual or company), and that person still ends up with nothing.

Hmm, must be because the mindset isn't good enough yet. Gotta buy more books and CDs and get that mindset really, really buff.

The fact is that when it comes to most reasonable aspirations, we have everything we need to achieve. We have brains that can learn and bodies that can move around and manipulate objects. We have voices that can communicate information, make requests, and persuade. We have wills that can help us keep going when things get rough and the path ahead looks barren, dangerous, or difficult. We have creativity to come up with new approaches.

Mindset schmindset. Leave your mindset alone. It'll take care of itself. Research, plan, make preparations, and then just go out there and do it (read: try, success is not guaranteed). Look at your results, repeat if necessary. If you're a healthy, intelligent individual, you will learn and your mindset will adapt on its own.

On a side note, here is where the "mindset" argument can become deadly. An individual on a show on the National Geographic channel was of the mindset that he could not be injured by cobra venom. He wished to show his power to some girls, so he allowed a cobra to bite him. They watched. He developed increasingly dramatic symptoms caused by the cobra venom. The people around him began to beg him to get help, but he refused. He replied, "My blood is snake's blood." He believed, a la Henry Ford, that he could and the snake venom could not.

When man was nearly unconscious, his loved ones decided to bring him to a hospital. Too late. He died for his beliefs. Perhaps some believers in belief can make him a saint?

What caused this man's death was the belief in belief. The belief in mindset.

On the same show, another individual handled a cobra poorly and was bitten. He knew the dangers. He was clear about the reality of the situation and threat. He stayed calm. He had a friend drive him to a hospital.

His mindset wasn't that his mindset made him better or worse, but rather that reality is real, and it's best to be informed by the facts and act according to what you know. Antivenom was what he needed, not belief, and he knew it. His mindset helped him stay calm and act reasonable, yes, but it's the antivenom that saved him. He's alive because of it. Compare it to the other guy.

In my mindset, it can't get any clearer than that.







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In case anyone has tried to suggest that the human mind is incapable of exerting a deliberate and systematic effect on phenomena in the observed universe..or "reality" as some might call it, here is a double-blind study to the contrary:
http://www.dnaperfection.com/pages/4/index.htm
(scroll down a bit to get to the study)


...Apparently the "mindset" of the those individuals offering prayer and positive intention made quite a bit of difference in the health and well-being of the patients under examination in these studies.

There are many other such double-blind studies which prove
exactly the same thing. (see the work of Larry Dossey)

Not new-age crap; hard scientific evidence.

Actually just confirmation of Bell's non-locality theorem in
physics, which demonstrated that the mind of
the observer established instantaneous action-at-a distance in the observed
"physical" universe.

No, this doesn't mean that everyone can sit around controlling everything telepathically. But it is a skill, that can be cultivated and developed, and integrated with an overall program for change in the individual case (including effort, persistence, etc.)

I say, each should (responsibly) learn to use it as they are able, as it has been largely brainwashed out of us in the west by our inheritance of scientific materialism and naive "realism".

Isn't that what many of us are involved in doing already...?


[This message has been edited by garics (edited August 16, 2005).]






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And then why do you think that the guy how died by the venom had the better mindset?
quote:
His mindset helped him stay calm and act reasonable, yes, but it's the antivenom that saved him.
I think the kind of reality you speak about is deterministic? If so why itsn't it than the flow of events: He became injured - He decided to act responsive - He got antivenom - He was healed.

I do see that acting responsive has resulted in becomming healed.

quote:
But this is changing your dreams to meet the situation, not keeping your dream constant

So you believe that things can be constant and that 'constant' is an absolute term, and no realitive one.
Whetever something is constant comes only from your perspective.
For example, while you drive in your car you don't move when your focus point is your car, the tempo your car show's if your focus point is the street and a lot more if your focus point is the sun.
So whetever something is constant depends on your perspective with is a part of your mindset.
quote:
Hmm, must be because the mindset isn't good enough yet. Gotta buy more books and CDs and get that mindset really, really buff.
I don't think that buying books and CDs can make a right mindset.
It is nothing which you can have withoud crossing selfdeveloped limits. What is neither easy nor can be accomplished passivly.








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Garics,

I tend to believe that healing is possible through the use of "energy." I don't know what happens, exactly, in these cases, but I believe that something DOES go on that can be measured, as the studies you refer to show.

I personally had the healing of an ailment assisted by two energy workers. I don't know how to explain what happened, but I know they had an influence on the healing process. A drastic one.

It wasn't simply an attitude of theirs or mine that did it. They had to DO specific things with their minds, bodies, and energy systems to do it.

Attitude and mindset can help or hinder, no doubt about that. A lot of this faith healing stuff can be accounted for by the placebo effect, some, I think, can't. But it isn't just a mindset creating a reality. There is more to it.

I don't think it's a healthy attitude to think that things will magically work your way if you just think positive.

But, whatever. If someone wants to fantasize and hope, then that's their choice. I'll plan and work.







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quote:
Originally posted by babayada:

It wasn't simply an attitude of theirs or mine that did it. They had to DO specific things with their minds, bodies, and energy systems to do it.


Well that's the key distinction then, isn't it?

I wasn't sure you were clear on this, because of the reference to Buddhist practioners. A legitimate Buddhist practice is a discipline of body, mind, emotions, and breath; it certainly amounts to a lot more than changing one's mindset or beliefs.

The same goes for a lot of manifestation programs available commerically or in books. It is a specific process for visualizing, one of the key components being to visualize with energy, i.e. feeling emotion as part of the visualization.

Of course there is a huge variation in how technical or sophisticated these different systems can get.

Pretty much every time I've heard a version of this recipe, whether from Napoleon Hill, Jonathan Parker, or a more esoteric source, concrete effort in the world is always emphasized as a necessary ingredient of the process.









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Hmm... looks like peopel are going back & forth with this simple idea.

"Anything your mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve" - PROVIDED you believe you are capable of achieving those dreams & goals AND you are willing to work on a CONSISTENT & PERSISTENT basis. Otherwise, it becomes difficult and sometimes almost impossible.

Babayada, when people helped you with energy healing, they believed beyond doubt that they can help - otherwise they would have a difficult time. Whether you believed or not was different.

The comment about some people don't always believe they can achieve certain things but work for them anyway - guess what... consistent & persistent work still pays off - eventually your mind believes that you can achieve as you start putting action toward your goals.

About cobra ... people do stupid things hoping to impress the opposite sex - how do you know about someone else's mindset? There is (still living, I don't remember where) another person who worked with poisonous snakes to extract venom. He almost got bitten once, then he started injecting very negligable amount of venom in his bloodstream everyday and gradually increased the amount hoping to be safe if there was any future attacks. Guess what? After a couple of years or so, he was badly bitten by a snake but he survived. He didn't have a mindset to impress some girls to take them to movies.

Bottomline is to get the fastest result, you do need to believe, have faith that you can accomplish, make your goals and targets and work toward them consistently.








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Well....

Have you guys considered the danger of giving yourselves an inaccurate mindset when you're trying to think positive?

There was a study done on incompetence. Across the board, incompetent people were found to have an erroneous belief that their ability at something was much greater than it actually was. They also demonstrated consistently an inability to perceive negative feedback in that area.

Once these individuals were shown the painful truth in a way in which they could not deny it, something miraculous happened. They started to actually improve their performance in the areas in which they were incompetent.

So, the whole "if you believe it, it is true" thing doesn't hold water.

More on cobra venom. The body can grow resistent to cobra venom to an extent. The body can develop a response to the proteins in it. However, the kind of venom from cobra to cobra can vary. Where you think you might have an out and out immunity, along may come a cobra with venom that is just significantly different enough that it kills you. They actually talked about that on the National Geographic special.

So, in terms of mindset and generalization, believing you can can can is what can get you into real trouble in some situations.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited August 20, 2005).]






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quote:
There was a study done on incompetence. Across the board, incompetent people were found to have an erroneous belief that their ability at something was much greater than it actually was. They also demonstrated consistently an inability to perceive negative feedback in that area.

The point is that this isn't a good or right mindset.
After the law of reverse flexibility the amount of power you have over something rise proportional to the rise of flexibility in that area. That means the more reponses you can generate to feedback whetever it is positive or negative you have available the more you can accomplish. Most people are extremly unflexible and can improved based on a more flexible mindset.

In addition constant and focused effort is more powerfull than unfocused effort.

quote:
So, in terms of mindset and generalization

Thinking that people have the ability to make no generaliziation is irrealistic. If you don't make your generaliziations consciously you make them unconsciously. If you make them consciously your flexibility is greater and so are your results.






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