Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Beyond Human Spritual Seekers and Enlightenment

Thanks Guys,

Your take on what I asked is not quite what I expected.
First I ditched Holosync because of the expense and secondly I am in the middle of the HB programme.
Living in the now is a given - the past is gone and the future is not here so any and everything can only take place in the present moment.
But --- I am not entirely averse to a bit of planning. You still have to live and function in this world and unless you are lucky enough not to have any commitments, responsibilities and enough money to be able to do your own thing then you do need to plan to provide for your dependents etc. I did change my secure Government job a few years ago to one more in line with my abilities and now I am retired.

However the crux of the matter was whether or not anyone thought that enlightenment is a bio/neurological change in the brain and DNA caused by an external experience or if it is something else? But no one seems to have picked up on this.

I did not say that Kalki was my Guru or hero , only that what he says seems to have the ring of truth; also he is neither a cult leader or a religious leader, his life purpose is to enlighten people. I actually follow and practice SFQ - Master Chunyi Lin.

2012. Well I don't know. I've read a bit about it and certainly many people seem to think that is is a pivotal date for our planet and there seem to be a lot of statements from persons who are regarded as enlightened that it is a turning point.
Hope this clears up some things
Love & light
Faune

I actually did address your question, yes it requires a neurological change but that change is the result of a vibrational change in your energy body. Drugs can reverse this process but it causes damage in most cases and you really have no control over the outcome.

Lord Shandor has a good point about effort- being in the now does not mean complacence or laziness- please don't take it that way...

Steve, I liked alot about their product, it was a good way to meditate, and I was getting many benefits from it- benefits showed up in my QiGong, martial arts, and other spiritual practices. Yes, I would have continued if it were not for the incredibly high price...and the pumped up hype too.

vitaman

Hi Vita-man 'effort- being in the now does not mean complacence or laziness- please don't take it that way...'
I don't believe I have been either and no I am not taking offence , but merely stating a fact . I always, as far as I am able, try to be aware of the 'babbler' and getting hooked into past or future. I do the old exercise of look up, down left , right, visualise, listen,feel --- to bring me back to the moment.

Lord Shandor,
'I actually did address your question, yes it requires a neurological change but that change is the result of a vibrational change in your energy body.'

Thank you for that, but how do you think that change occurs? What Kalki says is that it can be from a mystical God given experience or given to you by someone who knows how - but either way you cannot do it yourself. It comes from outside you.

Love and light
Faune

The change occurs through conscious effort, through increasing awareness. it is something you can do on your own through enough will and reflection OR it can be achieved by someone of a higher consciousness pushing your energy beyond its current boundaries. Eric talks a bit about this in Reverse Engineering the Self. Basically they build up your frequency using thier own energy.

Think of the old saying, "You become like those you spend your time with".

In a manner of speaking it comes from outside you because its your higher self, that which is closer to god. But in a nother way of seeing it, everything is connected so it really comes from within.

To say it comes from outside of you would be true when speaking of your awareness/consciousness. It is outside the norm of your current reality. This would be a spiritual experience that expands your world view and shows you other possibilties. This is not to say it "must" happen this way, but more often than not it tends to require it because people are so deeply asleep.

In my own case I have never had any mystical experiences that caused me to start looking for answers. I have always had an innate desire to find it and it did not require a catalyst experience. I always wanted one but never found it. So this tells me that an outside force is not required (speaking of mystical experiences) to get you on the path. Once on the path you are really talking terms of development. The more profound experiences tend to be "leaps" forward as opposed to incremental changes in being.

I think it takes interest, sincere effort and consistence. I think it takes an open mind as well.

Does that make more sense?

So the short answer would be, no it doesn't require outside intervention but because of being asleep, most will find this to be their experience.

While in University, Alan Watts, Taoism, Zen, and all that really, really turned me on. I remember reading Alan Watts and feeling totally buzzed. He presented a totally new way of thinking, and thinking in that manner felt really good.

It's almost like philosophical crack.

I spent a long time reading up on it, thinking about it, doing various practices, meditating.

But now, looking back on all of it, I find that I was unquestioning about a lot of things. What exactly was this enlightenment I was seeking? What did I think it was going to do for me? And is that really desirable?

From my current point of view, enlightenment doesn't seem all that desirable. There are alternatives that help me meet my goals much better. Dealing with my life now, as is, and not seeking enlightenment or some other lofty goal, I am able to deal with more immediate concerns and find more pleasure in the moment. What I wanted from seeking comes more immediately from living in the world and finding, right in the present moment.

I've observed people, most notably my brother who suffers from brain-damage, and have learned a lot about lofty goals. My brother's condition reveals directly what most people hide. His arguments and confabulations are more transparent, but from observation and comparison I can see the same things that go on with him happen with everybody.

Typically, when he craves something and cannot fulfill his desire, his arguments go up, up, and up into lofty realms. The issue is not that he is craving some particular thing or other, it becomes an issue of freedom. Well, so much for freedom, because when his basic desire is fulfilled, discussions about freedom disappear.

It's my hypothesis that spiritual seekers have an itch or a complex of itches. These itches derive from basic needs that are going unfulfilled. When the seeker satisfies the itch (which is usually a base desire), the seeking stops.

I might be totally wrong about this. Most probably, this hypothesis is correct for some cases but not all. As an experiment, you might want to ask, "What if my spiritual needs are actually basic physical, psychological, or social needs? If so, what would they be?"

If you get answers to that question, go about fulfilling those needs and then see how you feel about your spiritual quest once they are satisfied. You might find that the immanent trumps the transcendental efficiently.

Hi Lord Shandor and Babayada,

Thank you for your replies which have given me much to ponder.

Lord Shandor
,' I have never had any mystical experiences that caused me to start looking for answers. I have always had an innate desire to find it and it did not require a catalyst ' -
This I think, describes awakening but not enlightenment as I believe it to be. Can you truly say that you, or anyone you know is enlightened? or would you say that you are an awakened seeker?
If you read or listen to those who are avatars they almost all were first awakened seekers who then had a sudden life changing experience which in many cases made them withdraw from the world for a period of time and which completely changed their perspective. Some say it is like being re-born.
What Kalki says is that all teachings are useless if you are seeking enlightenment because they only create another concept for the mind to hang onto. Teachings can follow enlightenment but no teaching can produce it. No amount of effort can get you there.
There are as many different kinds of enlightenment as there are people but the common thread is awakening of the true self and the permanent dissolution of conflict and suffering. The entire framework of past conditioning disappears as do expectations of the future. This is often accompanied by states of cosmic consciousness and bliss, profound perceptual changes, sharpened senses and the sense of separate identity dissolves. Thoughts still flow through the mind but do not emanate from the mind.
Realise there are things you can do to prepare yourself but it is by grace and grace alone. It happens not through effort or study but in surrendering to divine intervention or grace which provides the change in cosciousness & DNA.

Baba,
The theory that you propose is a valid one, we can change the our ideas , concepts and beliefs, and fulfill our basic needs but that does not mean that our inner nature has changed. I think enlightenment is the change in our inner nature (soul) and some of us not only want but need that change.
Love and light
Faune

RE: seeking

I found something called Big Mind several months back, and it was previously discussed on this forum. This guy does a gestalt like process that gets you quickly beyond the ego, seeker, etc to be very present.

I got the mp3s from a radio show and from a seminar- they worked great!

http://www.integralnaked.org/live/view_bigmind.aspx
or
http://www.bigmind.org/media.html

babayada

The core issue here, as I see it, is not about what you accomplish here and now so much as what you are building for once you leave here. I would agree to a point that concentrating on more earthly matters seems to bring more instant gratification and would on a superficial level seems like the more desirable route to go. I feel your thinking is limited however in that it sounds as if you assume that "this" is all there is so you might as well get all you can now because once you are gone then it won't matter. If that is your perspective then what you are saying makes perfect sense. If you hold a larger perspective then it is a very shortsighted way of viewing the world.

Now in reference to people stopping their search once unfulfilled needs are met you do have a point and that is very true of some or most seekers. It is the nature of man and the nature of Gaia to forget about the important things when you enter a state of comfort. Slaves dream of freedom but if they become free and forget how bad it was they can be led back to slavery over time and never realize they have become enslaved again. America is the perfect example of this. The slaves think they are free because they have the biggest cage with the shiny gold chains. Comfort leads to forgetfulness.

I would tend to think that those who forget are relatively new souls and are easily distracted. Many people look everywhere for something and simply can't find it. Relationships don't do it, money doesn't do it, family doesn't do it, career doesn't do it. Nothing seems to fill that void. Often this leads to deep depression or religious fanaticism.

I definately agree that people are comforted by their lies and that intentions are rarely pure or honest. Knowing this we can seek to change it and move to a higher state of being. The fact that people are dishonest does not make the spiritual path less valid, it is simply one of many pitfalls on the road to keep you from getting to where you need to go.

2012. Hmmmm. I like that. And it also coincides with my own plans.

But of course, being an engineer, I would like to put it this way: 2012 +/- 5yrs.

:-D :-D :-D

p.s. This message is not meant to be just a joke, though joking is never far from me. ;-)