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#2567 02/01/01 11:49 PM
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I'd redo the ad if I were paying for it. And maybe the distributor who pays for it might. But life is too short to get into a tizzy over it. Time for a beer.






#2568 02/02/01 12:29 AM
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I'm assuming this person is a woman. It's taken me a long time to identify this aspect in myself. When women get out of touch w/ their feelings, we tend to turn into generalizing you-know-whats. I was forced to learn about myself b/c i am the only woman where i work. I'd go ranting & raving about something i though was just terrible &, guess what, all the men would look at me like i was crazy. And, this would only make me more determined. The guys are the same, but i am different.

I don't drink beer, but that's pretty much the kind of look i often received, Pete.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete Bissonette:
I'd redo the ad if I were paying for it. And maybe the distributor who pays for it might. But life is too short to get into a tizzy over it. Time for a beer.








#2569 02/02/01 02:57 AM
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You drink, Pete? For some reason I was thinking that people who have real control over their minds and their lives wouldn't need such base means to alter their states. In writing this, I really have to say that you were just joking, because it just doesn't fit. Then again, beer is an American past time, so I might be wrong.






#2570 02/02/01 04:56 AM
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But life is too short to get into a tizzy over it. Time for a beer.

LOL! Had a good laugh over that one.
Pete, are you contributing to the delinquency of a minor? ..just kidding

For some reason I was thinking that people who have real control over their minds and their lives wouldn't need such base means to alter their states.

The founder of my Tai Chi lineage was an alcoholic! Yet he was also a Master in four arts: Tai Chi, Painting, Poetry, and Calligraphy. That is, ‘master’ as in the pinnacle of specialty that comes with many decades. He was also a senator in the old Chinese government before being exiled to Taiwan, and a renown Confucian university professor.

Also, Alan Watts, the man who helped bring knowledge of Taoism and Zen and Buddhism in a palatable form to the United States in the 60’s, was also an alcoholic and into psychedelic drugs. ..the most articulate man I know of! I respect these two men’s lives more than any others.

Not that I’m condoning alcoholism!! Just pointing out two great men.. Enlightened Men, no less, who were alcoholics. Seeming contradictions.

Actually, I bet if you conducted research on the subject, you’d find a high correlation between *recreational* drinking and ‘true happiness’. It kills mind chatter, stifles fears, and induces a feeling of well-being. All good things? “Yes, but it also does x, y, z.” True. True. But isn’t it worth it to sacrifice a smidgeon of health for that much more happiness?

Then again, beer is an American past time, so I might be wrong.

Alcohol is more the pastime of humanity!

I think the view which you are expressing is a puritanical remnant. I put that right in there with puritan sexual beliefs, which still affect our culture. Perhaps the only thing that makes drinking 'bad' is the ancient taboo? In most every other country in the universe, alcohol is taken for a normal part of life and thus abuse is much less. I’m surprised you hold this view, having spent so much time in other countries, where doubtless the drinking age was 12 if at all. Actually, I held your exact view until taking a trip to Italy when I was 14, which opened my mind rather like a cosmic can-opener.

I realize that all this can be quite shocking to realize.

Even Yale is much like every other college on the weekends!

Hallucinogenic drugs on the other hand... Man oh man, I remember at a potluck dinner with many senior students and a couple instructors from tai chi class. The topic turned to the 60's, and they all started to share psychedelic drug experiences!!! 'WOAH'. That crumpled my perception of them for a time. I was definitely not prepared to hear that!

Here is an article by Alan Watts on the noblest uses of drugs: http://www.erowid.org/entheogens/journals/entheogens_journal4.shtml Let me say that I do not subscribe to drug use. And the illegality of drugs has nothing to do with that. It’s the horrendous and permanent mental damage that concerns me.

Though, here’s a thought: Psychedelic drugs essentially induce a waking theta state. Waking dreams. It would be quite interesting indeed for a Master PhotoReader to experiment with say LSD after photoreading… I wonder how that would compare to the Lucid Dreaming adventures Pete has described?







#2571 02/03/01 06:19 AM
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Tim, I thought it was pretty harsh what you said about Pete. He said it was time for A beer, not that he was picking up a keg. Having A beer has nothing to do with self discipline(unless you're a recovering alcoholic). A small amount of alcohol in your system is known to optimize performance, not to mention beer was invented by monks. And not everybody drinks beer to get drunk, believe it or not, some people drink it for the taste.

If you were joking, I'm sorry for this reply. But I think those were some ill-conceived and ignorant statements.

[This message has been edited by NiJuIchi (edited February 02, 2001).]






#2572 02/03/01 06:45 AM
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beer was invented by monks.

really? I always thought it was invented by a mesopatamian culture.. the Sumerians was it? around 3000BC? I don't know any details. Supposedly, the reason why men settled down to specific plots to farm the land was 'just so' they could grow grain to ferment to make.. BEER!!!!! Wow, how much civilization owes to the brew! Actually, I heard this at an Anheiser-Busch theme park, so not sure how reliable that is!
(They also said that the oldest written recipe in the world was a recipe for beer.)

Anyone aware of beer's origins?







#2573 02/02/01 08:47 PM
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Sorry, I guess I came across differently than I would have liked. What I meant to say was that alchol kills brain cells. What I meant to say was that more money is spent on alchol in the United States than on the Defense Budget. What I meant to say was that car accidents are the number one killer in America, and the vast majority of those involve alchol. What I meant to say was that if one has control over one's mind, then all the benefits of alchol, and yes, there are many, can be had just as easily without destroying lives.

I, unforunatly, am not in the position to have the level of control over my mind and my life to get those same benefits that alchol offers without such a catalyst. So I can not understand why someone would go out of their way, spend hard earned money, and literally hurt themselves to receive both the positive and negative results, when they have in their power the ability to achieve only the positive affects. It just does not make sense to me.

I can not help but reiterate the point that I am not one of these self-mastered individuals, and that in my mind drinking does serve a positive purpose, but it does result, on a whole, to a more chaotic society.

If you really like the taste that much, buy alchol-free beer. Personally, I can't stand the stuff.

And yes, Brian, I do have an alternate perspective of drinking than do most of my countrymen because of my over-seas experience. And what I have seen speaks very little for the way Americans treat themselves.

Alchol is a depressant, so chemically it reduces your energies, and allows you to forget about your troubles. I don't think forgetting about your troubles are going to make them go away, and less energy takes away from your ability to change your life for the better.

I know I'm going to step on some toes saying what I am saying, but this culture just has this escapism complex, be it alchol, or television, or work, we just need to stop putting off our lives and actually live them.

Hell, if a sip of beer makes you feel better about yourself, go ahead and do it. If you know where to draw the line, then I applaud you.

Here's a couple of questions for you: if we are all looking to improve our lives, especially through learning, is alchol the best way to achieve that? If not, then does it hinder us?

I know I'm not being too PC here, so if you're offended, I appoligize. I mean no disrespect to any of you, especially Pete.






#2574 02/02/01 09:37 PM
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To all you guys:

I am so very impressed w/ your levels of tolerance & knowledge. This is really such an interesting DF.








#2575 02/02/01 09:48 PM
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I know that a beer recipee was found on a clay tablet that dated back to the time that Egypt ruled the world. I don't remeber the theoretical date that was cited in the article of the tablet other than it was BC. Someone did try the recipee a few years ago and reported the beer tasted pretty good.

I used to home brew beer for the taste of the product. Home brewing provides microbrew quality at Budweiser cost. I don't know of any non-alcoholic beer that tastes anything like a good microbrew. Non-alcoholic beers are limited to just a few brands (I think less than 5) and mostly taste like Bud Light. Bud Light, in my opinion and tastes, is no more flavorful than water and not worth my time drinking. I dont drink much beer but I do like to relax and enjoy the taste on occasion.

As with everything, I think the key concept here is moderation. This seems to be lacking in many areas of our culture. Just my two cents .






#2576 02/02/01 10:10 PM
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Tim, I could totally envision myself writing what you just wrote five years ago!

we just need to stop putting off our lives and actually live them.

I half agree. If alcohol is taken to run away-->bad, obviously.

If alcohol is taken to ‘enhance’ a social experience, then you are not ‘putting off your life’, you are engaging fully in the here and now. 100% in the moment, 100% unself-consciousness, focusing entirely and utterly on a conversation, for instance. How much greater is the focus! How much greater is laughter! How much more sincere are the emotions! Further, I happen to have great contempt for the ‘reasoning conscious mind’. Slight alcohol shuts that down just enough so that a primitive flow state ensues accompanied by pleasant sensations. Not only that, but is it desirable to ‘always’ be out there either improving yourself or changing the world? Break time is good time! ...to an extent. But to what extent?

this culture just has this escapism complex, be it alcohol, or television

The answer to the question of ‘moderation’ or ‘balance’ had eluded me for some time. Specifically, with television, sex, alcohol, computers, and a even self-improvement addiction. Do these activities have any redeeming qualities?—are they wholly evil? Of course not. When do the benefits of these five things outweigh the detriments? THAT is the question.

if we are all looking to improve our lives,

What does this mean to you? Learning and Mind stuff and accomplishing great things... all well and right and good. But emotional health and social connection are JUST as vital to leading the good life!

especially through learning, is alchol the best way to achieve that? If not, then does it hinder us?

Let me ask you this then... ready?

Hypothetically. Say someone offers you a drug that would make you a veritable genius...a Master PhotoReader. The drug, however, has some side effects. Those side effects are EQUIVALENT to drinking one or two beers a day in brain/liver damage.

Do you take it?

My answer? Pragmatism in all things.

Do the benefits outweigh the detriments?
(or as Paul says, ‘will this ultimately bring me greater peace?’)

Tim, I think what you say jives well with both your age and your idealism. In time though, I think you can expect that rigid belief to almost certainly fade into something slightly more moderate.

as they say... "cheers!"
Brian

[This message has been edited by Brian649 (edited February 02, 2001).]






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