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Thanks, Kristoff.

I totally agree with you regarding subconscious persuasion. I think that, though some of NLP is useful, most of it is deception. Anchoring and reframing are useful, but the Meta model, persuasion strategies--regardless of how "ethical" it is--is totally deceptive. Like brain washing.

We need to realize that, no matter how much we're trying to "help" someone,that we are dealing with a real human being who has feelings, and we cannot just press a button and get the response we want.






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What's wrong with knowing when people are lying to you? I'll take whatever edge I can get.







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Paul=Russian spy?
JK man
Espionage and Sedition Act hopefully not in play during this gathering.






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Nice, but I have knives in my house.
I haven't killed anybody with them, although they could be used for that. I do find lots of other very handy uses for them.

Tools and knowledge are not things I fear. I trust myself to use what I have in an ethical manner. I also trust myself to be alert for my own welfare.

Kristoff's post has made me reread the retreat statement, but not necessarily change my mind. I've learned much about the techniques of reading people from other venues. I've noticed these techniques being used against me. I'm sure that not all of the time the people using them were conscious of their attempts to influence me. They were just techniques that they naturally developed as they grew and acquired thier socialization skills.


Just had to pipe in.

Live and learn,

Iam2






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* The rooms either have one king or two queen beds. The hotel was originally a Scanticon, if you are familiar with those. Quite nice.

* I'll be in and out every day. Our office is only about five miles away. Dana, Sandy, Shawn, Cheryl, Patrick, and Lynette will be there, too. As a matter of fact, Shawn will lead most of the outdoor experiential sessions. (The rest of our local staff will be there at one point or another.)

We'd love to have those who want to swing by the office, too. We'll show you around.

Paul and I will have a special lunch for the Forum regulars. We've been reading your posts and look forward to spending time with you in real life.

* There is not need for a car rental. You can take the super shuttle from the airport. I think it is $22 one way.

* I don't know what the rates are for Saturday or Friday night. I just emailed Sarah, and I'll post them when she gets back to me.

* We're hoping for 50 people. We could have as many as 100. Hard to tell, because we aren't giving folks a lot of advanced notice. We're doing it for two reasons: 1) in a recent survey a preponderance






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As far as I'm concerned - what you learn about subconscious persuasion is really all about what you do with it. People who naturally use deception for their own gain and another's loss exist whether stuff like the persuasion part of NLP does or not.

As far as I'm concerned, why not use it to help you and others become better connected, solve their problems, prevent them from making bad choices, etc?

"I'm afraid that's an unfair question, Senator. After all, the wrong person behind the wheel of a car can be dangerous."

-youngprer






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It's not so much that I have a problem with the tool, as I do with the priciple. Whether or not you are helping someone or hindering someone, you are DECEIVING someone.

It's this principle of DECEIVING that I don't like.

How would you like it if someone, whether they are trying to help you or not, was tricking you? That person would be DECEIVING you to get the response he wants, whether it be good or bad.

astrowill, I'm not talking about lying here






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Pete,

Is the hotel the same one where I attended Pauls Photoreading class in March?

Alex






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Arthur please tell us how one can use NLP to deceive people. Right now I'll give you an example of harmless NLP.
Take a group of people and tell them to close their eyes and imagine their own personal timelines. Have them hold their left arms out in the direction of the past, and their right arms toward the future. Those who have a good sense of time and organization will generally hold their left arms a little behind them and pointed slightly down, while their right arms will be a little forward and up...but basically their arms will be out like airplane wings. Others, though, will have their arms in screwy positions--these are the people who tend to be late and stuff. From there you can have the "bad timeline" people model the others and hopefully give them a better sense of time. We've taken thoughts and put them into words and instructions so that they can be conveyed to other people.
OK Arthur, your turn.







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Alexk,

Many 'Canucks' are hoping you'll attend!

LLL

Michael Saikali







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