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#48270 06/13/02 01:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neo-Matrix:
I am sorry to say that there is currently no scientific proof of God, but the Big Bang is VERY unlikely, I say impossible.

So why is it entirely possible that a supreme being exists when the possibility of something like the Big Bang is impossible?

quote:

For one thing, there would have to be energy to be blasted into the matter that exists now. there would have to be something to start with


Who's to say that there wasn't anything before the universe? It's entirely possible that our universe was created from events in another universe. It's possible that this sort of thing happens all the time and that there are an infinitely large number of universes out there. Just because we can't measure anything before our universe began doesn't mean that there wasn't anything there.


quote:

only God can make something out of nothing.


Again, proof?

quote:

if the universe has ABSOLUTELY nothing in it, this means there is nothing to react, explode, or Bang at all.


See answer above.

quote:

if the universe were created by people from another universe, then how was their universe created? starting from absolutely nothing, no energy, no heat or cold, no matter or extra dimensions, nothing can react to anything so how would things just *form*?


Our universe is not infinite in that it has a definite start. (Although to complicate matters, our universe IS infinite in that time itself was created at the Big Bang, so there was nothing before and there will be nothing after the universe has died).

That doesn't mean that space is not infinite. Matter, space, energy could all exist infinitely, each of which create more universes.

quote:

The reason i beleive God is a living God and not just a representation of the energy of the universe is because he talked to people, appeared to people, and was put in human form on earth as Jesus so we could be saved from hell for all of our sins.


There's a saying that goes like this:

"Why is it that when we talk to God it's called 'praying', but when God talks to us, it's called 'paranoid schitzophrenia'". The only account you have of God appearing to man is from a book written 2000 years ago. I'll continue this discussion after the next quote...

quote:

if you actually want to find out the truth, read the Bible and find me something that can be proven false.


The Bible can be interpreted in many ways. There are certain things in the Bible which have been described as one thing, but given our technological advances, could equally be described in completely different terms. Sure, the Erich von Daniken stuff may seem a little unbelievable to some, but all he's doing is offering a different interpretation of the words in the Bible.

quote:

if you're not willing to read up on it, then you dont really want to know the truth.


I must admit that I've never sat down and read the Bible. I've read parts of it. But what I have read doesn't tell me what is real or what isn't any more than Chris Ryan's latest SAS fiction book.

quote:

since i've said this, i would like to see links or references to anything relating to eastern religion, or whatever religion you think is the right one. im willing to read up on the information and see what i find.

I don't believe in religion. Religion is probably one of the biggest causes of hatred in the world, and has been throughout history.

Now look, Neo-Matrix. I don't begrudge you having your beliefs. You are as free to believe in God and the Bible just as I am free to choose to be sceptical. I don't particularly like the way you are handling this topic though. Your first post was fine - a good question. However, when Hel puts forward his view, you then go on to slate his (and many other people's) views on the subject. You seem to have the attitude that your beliefs are right and everyone else is wrong. I like to keep an open mind to possibilities. Perhaps you should learn to do the same.

No offence intended.

[This message has been edited by bujin (edited June 13, 2002).]


#48271 06/13/02 03:24 PM
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I kinda followed this post, and since I share bujins view, I've got one thing to add:
All those puritan, hard-core christians always talk about reading the bible and how true it all is .. when in fact they're not even reading the original texts. They only quote from the english translation. Now translations are such a tricky, sensitive thing ... there's so many things that can go wrong.
Just as an example, until a few centuries (?) ago, Moses was always depicted with horns on his head, because of an error of translation!
Now if you only trust in a highly subjective translation of the text, I say you can't really know what the truth is, and what's really in the bible.
Many things cannot be put into a translation of an original text, such as play of words, atmosphere, even the mind-set and thinking of the originators.
Now if you can't read that stuff in its hebrew or arameic original, I say you can't even prove what you read! For all I know, the translation itself can be faulty and influenced by the thinking and mindset of the translator(s) ... everything is!

I stand by bujins point of view, religion is one of the worst things humankind could create! There are so many religions, and almost each of them says that if you're not a member, you're going to hell.
So why do you think you're not going to hell?

ste

quote:

COPY FACTOR

A new monk arrived at the monastery. He was assigned to
help the other monks in copying the old texts by hand. He
noticed, however, that they were copying copies, not the
original books.

The new monk went to the head monk to ask about this. He
pointed out that if there was an error in the first copy,
that error would be continued in all of the other copies.
The head monk said, "We have been copying form the copies
for centuries, but you make a good point my son."

The head monk went down into the cellar with one of the
copies to check it against the original.

Hours later, nobody had seen him, so one of the monks
went downstairs to look for him. He heard sobbing coming
form the back of the cellar and found the old monk
leaning over one of the original books, crying.

He asked what was wrong. "the word is Celebrate, no
celibate!" Sobbed the head monk.


[This message has been edited by Xehupatl (edited June 13, 2002).]


#48272 06/13/02 04:12 PM
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quote:
when the wise men went to Jesus, He was a baby, they didnt teach Him anything they came to praise Him.

In the Buddist Tradition when a Great One is found they see to his training.The wisemen
would have stayed to see to this. Between his birth and the age of 30 nothing is known or writen about Jesus.It is his last 3 years of life that is documented in the new testement.Other then that.Very little is known of his life.So I speculate that he spent the first part of his life in training with the "Wisemen". Among the Buddists Praise and honor of "The Chosen" is automatic.But they wouldnt have seen him as "The Christ" They would have seen him as one of the Chosen like the Dali Lama.

[This message has been edited by WanderingBear (edited June 13, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by WanderingBear (edited June 13, 2002).]


#48273 06/13/02 06:15 PM
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starting from the top:
God has done things unexplainable and has proven himself many times, but just because people wrote it down, its automatically debatable, so we debate over it's truth. Thats why i beleive God exists. There is no other explanation for the creation of the universe in all of its vast detail. how about you read Creations Tiny Mystery. its about Granite and the radio halo's found in it. read anything you want about granite halo's, scientists cant explain why they exist.
once again, there has to be SOME beginning, before the *unlimited amount of universes* existed, there was NOTHING in existance. if you want to claim that our universe came from a billion other universes, then tell me also how those universes were created. you have to start from ZERO somewhere, however many universes you have to trace back through.
God does miracles in almost every book of the bible, and even in this day, although everyone denies it and credits a healing to some *paranormal happening*, rather than just accepting the simplest explanation.
ok so you said that energy and matter could exist infinitely, and theres no way i could say otherwise since its beyond anyones comprehension, but i still say its far fetched, but thats just my opinion.
the book written 2000 years ago that says about all of the things God did still stands, and the reason God doesnt appear to anyone is because 1: the bible says God is brighter than the sun, and that his presense is blinding for any man. 2: he hasnt found anyone WORTHY of his presence since then. the faithful are few.
i dont think any science fiction book would have such facts and detailed records of so many things in history, the bible has geneologies, records of different kingdoms and kings, and stories of prophets and miracles, and most of all it has the story of Jesus and his disciples.
from what ive read, you dont really keep an open mind, because if you did, you would be reading the bible right now, to find out the truth. why would the bible have boring things like geneologies if it were some kind of fiction book to get peoples attention? the bible wasnt written to gain the approval of some scientists and skeptics, it was written for anyone who wants to read the Word of God and for the people who beleive to gain better understanding.
Xehupatl: the copy factor has been said against the bible before, but it isnt true at all, the king james bible is a perfect word for word translation of the dead sea scrolls that were found within the last 50 years, and the king james was written from copies of copies, not modified at all. the reason it doesnt change is because its GOD's book, the people who translate it are God inspired, so assuming for a moment that God exists(for those who dont beleive), why would he let his Word be changed and distorted, if he knew it would cause arguments and problems? HE DIDNT. most preachers and book writers(from the Seventh-Day Adventist church at least) learn HEBREW and GREEK as part of their studies, they KNOW what they are reading, and the people who write the books have a clear understanding of what was meant, most of it isnt hard to understand, most people try to get a translation out of every single verse. it isnt my religion that saves me, its my faith and personal relationship with God. i could care less if i was catholic or Bhuddist, the name doesnt matter, its what you beleive that will or will not get you saved.

#48274 06/14/02 03:12 AM
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There is one other expanation for the exsistance of the Universe. Science baised on logical reasoning With all facts in hand.
There is much overwhelming evedince To support scientific therory.
But the only thing to back up the Creationist theroy is blind faith. Sorry Thats not enough for me.
As far as the Bible gos Its nothing but a collection of old writtings by primitive desert nomads who knew nothing about the planet they lived on or what the stars were.Thats hardly proof.

[This message has been edited by WanderingBear (edited June 13, 2002).]


#48275 06/14/02 03:26 AM
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show me some overwhelming evidence that you speak of...
granite has radio halos in it left from plutonium which degraded inside the rock when the rock was formed. if the rock had ever been molten, the halos would not be there, and as far as i know explosions of massive energy would not leave the granite in its completely cooled state. read the scientific approach, once again, in the book you should read before debating the creation of the universe, Creations Tiny Mystery.
but since you guys are so extremely skeptical and close minded, i bet you wont even bother to check it out. and i shouldnt expect you to, but if you want to read it go ahead.

#48276 06/14/02 06:21 AM
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Your point being what? This planet is very old.in the Trillions of years. The material that this planet is made from is far older still.Not all the material was molten when this planet was formed.
I beleave your the one who needs to study.

#48277 06/14/02 06:27 AM
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how does it matter how old it is?? and how was the rock made?, it just appeared with plutonium scattered in it, in its solid state? you cant explain your claims but you talk to me like i dont know what im talking about. by the way its spelled 'beleive' not 'beleave' if you ever got out of grade school you might know that. just read the book instead of basing all your claims with statements about "trillions of years" and so-called "scientific fact". show me something or dont talk. i've told you about a book which proves creation using scientific study, but so far nobody has given me any reference to facts or studies.

#48278 06/14/02 08:23 AM
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believe

#48279 06/14/02 09:30 AM
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I have taken a look at the ideas in 'Creation's Tiny Mystery'. Haven't read the book. It sounds interesting; I'll look more into it when I have time. Here are two links which may be of interest:
http://www.cincinnatidharma.org/dharma_talks/poison_arrow.html
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/kalamas.html

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