Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Spring Forest Qigong This is not working.

I have been doing SFQ since May, 3-4 times/wk, about an hour per session, plus the sitting meditations 3-4 times/wk. I have not experienced any benefits from this. My health has worsened during this period, and my back hurts while doing the exercises. I now dread doing SFQ. What am I doing wrong?

Hi Tj! I totaly sympathize with what you're going thru. My symptoms got worse also, and my healing seems to be going slow. One thing that helps me alot is to do the exercises lying down or sitting down. It's easier to go into a relaxed state that way and thus focus on feelin the energy. It's very hard to find the emptiness when pain is present. Also, I wonder if taking an analgesic a half hour before practicing would help? take care

Hi,
As you have heard, there is a good, better, best to practicing qigong. I find that if I want to move past something, or get my practice to another level, it often takes more commitment to practice. The 'ideal', beginning practice is two hrs per day. It is not mandatory to do this , to benefit from qigong.
You can build up your practice over time, and make it as comfortable or easy a progression as you like. Remember the concept of life style, how many hrs there are in a weeks time of living. All the good and possibly not so good energy workings that transpire in that time period. Do you brush your teeth three or four times a week? How many times do you eat, and what?,,,,or what do you think about?? How is your posture and breathing, as you write this post? Are you thinking positively? Good energy and negative, or extra energy you don't need.. mindfulness, awareness...
You are not doing anything wrong. Your cup is half full with a good starting practice of SFQ. I think you should build your practice to everyday, and put out a new message regarding your self perception of that practice. Move it to a healing perspective, and a positive message. Change what it takes to make it a positive practice for you, and practice more. SFQ does not make your health worse. It improves your health. One can experience discomfort in that process, or symptoms amplify. Use common sense, along with will power and focus. Once you put the message out, of 'completely clear', hold your focus to that vibration. Your mind can undo what you gain or clear, quite easily. A sensation, again involving common sense, can be experienced as healing, or pain reverting to a worsened condition. Your consciousness can move the energy either way.
love,
gallen

I'm not sure if I understand your response. I'm saying that SFQ causes me to experience a painful back, and you're saying do it more often?

Doing it more is a hard pill to swallow when I perceive no benefits to doing it at all, and it hurts to do it.

Tjapukai, doing the active exercise for half an hour every day, especially at the same time, is better than doing an hour 3 or 4 times a week. The value of regularity and commitment should not be under estimated.

You don't have to do all of the exercises in the active meditations. Do a few today and a few tomorrow. Work and regularity in your practice.

If you are have not experienced any of the benefits from SFQ. Review the material again. I would suggest to you to learn the meditations well enough that you can do them without Master Lin's guidance, and just use the meditation music, or silence. Once you can do this I would suggest, for you, that you spend more time at the beginning in the starting to meditation for a few sessions. Specifically the combining with the universe, going into the emptiness, and calling on your master.

This is what I feel you need to work on. As a closing you are not doing anything wrong. It is a matter of moving along the continuum of good, better, best.

You are perfection.
Iam2

I am rather new to things, going on 3 months I think. I to went through some worsening before getting better. It is the trust and the faith and positivity that can get you through the times when you feel it isn't working. There will be small differences at first that you may not even notice, as I have found out myself. You have to visualize and tell yourself your are getting better.
There are still days I have to lye down while doing the exercises and yes I have very bad back pains from Myalgic illness' and scoliosis. Continue doing as little or as much as possible with the positive intention it will help. It does, I am only one of the proofs of being completely bedridden to 75 to 80 % better. My back will still hurt but it is getting easier and better as I continue.
Good luck with your practices and I hope you will find that it will help with consistency, visualization and help from this wonderful forum full of very helpful and thoughtful people. I highly recommend reading Chunyi Lin's book, A Born Healer.....it has helped my understanding of the man and the practice, not to mention all the wonderful people it has helped.
Gallen I read your wife's story and was so impressed, she is a very strong woman.
seedling

Hi,
No. I didn't say this. You just mentioned three or four negative things. I advocate non of them!! SFQ hurts your back, it is a hard pill to swallow, considering doing more,,, considering the fact it has no preceived benefit!!! I don't see all that. I see a possibility of improvement. Something positive. This is why I suggested more practice, a deeper practice. Not to hurt you! I don't want to hurt you, or cause you greater suffering! my goodness :-) I am not that sort of person!
I mentioned common sense, to define a pain. If you aren't comfortable, you can always ask a doctor's advice. I mentioned building your practice comfortably. Sometimes, that can mean altering your present practice, if you are straining something too much to an extreme.
Discomfort can be present in healing too. I practice lotus sitting. Believe me, there can be discomfort with the gains! Tired back, sore pelvis, tired knees. They all diminish for me with more practice. Opening up the sacrum, for me, for instance, involves some discomfort, but I support my intention of doing it and the best side effects to that type of selfwork. I am determined (focused), to do something, I trust the outcome...I've been there before , many times with other things, and I just share my perspective with you, regarding my own expeirence. I have worked myself back from physical damage or illness, a few times in my life with qigong. Sometimes the first steps, or stages, are more difficult. The choices are yours to make. I would say that doing what makes you most happy, is most important. Before you practice anything. It should be enjoyable for you.
love,
gallen

Hi Seedling,
Yikes! My wife's story? Is there something out there I don't know about! or am I forgetting something? What are you referring to?? (help me master..) -gallen

Gallen I am so sorry I was mixed up and was referring to Shawn's wife. Please forgive me
love seedling

I recognized the mix-up.

Another potential mix-up is the title of Chunyi Lin's book. It is Born A Healer, not A Born Healer. Just helping.

You are perfection.
Iam2

Well I am just batting a thousand today. Sorry gentlemen, with FMS I tend to have what I like to call 'brain cramps'
much love and thanks
seedling

Aloha,

Sound like too much "wife swap" reality TV and not enough active exercise and meditation to me

Thank you for the acknowledgement. Darcie is something else (she has to be to juggle iSaiah and put up with both Chunyi's and my own humor everyday)

Much love & humor, Shawn

[This message has been edited by Shawn_Grim (edited October 27, 2004).]

Hmmm. This person is saying that he or she is at a threshold point. The pain created by practicing the way he or she is is becoming unbearable.

Hearing that its going to get worse may make this person quit altogether.

Everyone has their level of tolerance of raw physical pain, and I think it is probably wise to offer this person, as frances has, means by which unnecessary pain can be alleviated.

Perhaps some sort of qigong practice that gives almost everyone some immediate result, some relief, is in order here? If someone's confidence is down, build it up.

Tjapukai, perhaps you should simply do some sitting meditations for a while? Try doing some chi generation exercises with your hands until you can really generate and feel it well. Then put your hands on your lower back and send the chi to the afflicted area while in a posture that is comfortable (even lying down on your belly).

I have been told that there isn't just chi, but that it comes in a variety of flavors. There is angry chi, happy chi, etc. Maybe you can try building up relief chi in your hands and then sending it to your back and circulating it around in the small universe or big universe of whatever it is.

I am not a spring forest chi gung practitioner, so maybe I should zip it.

I wish you the best of luck. You sound like you've got a good head on your shoulders. Stick with what works best for you. Adapt to the situation, but please keep going with the energy work, I know from a different system that it does work. Different system, but all the same human friendly energy.

You'll make your breakthrough. Vary your approach.

babayada, Master Lin's advice would have probably been short and to the point. Something along the lines of "Stay with the meditation as long as you can. The more resistance you feel that is when you have the opportunity for the greatest healing.". He would also say something like, "Trust in the universal energy.".

If Tjapuki could just step aside from the experience like you've described in your recent post he would probably see great results.

However, he has said little about his condition or his practice. Without more knowledge ones advice should be cautious. In life people can injure themselves. One shouldn't juggle knives until one can juggle clubs. With common sense that should never happen in SFQ. I have my own physical concerns about proceeding towards the full lotus position too quickly.

Much of the advice given in this thread was directed towards building Tjapukai's confidence in the practice of SFQ.

But you hit the nail on the head again. Confidence in the SFQ is what Tjapukai needs the most.

You are perfection.
Iam2

[This message has been edited by Iam2 (edited October 27, 2004).]

Dear one, I can't help but think that you should listen to your body and yourself. If you dread SFQ, maybe you should take a little break. Maybe it's not for you. If your pain is worse when doing the exercises, perhaps you should try doing only the ones that don't cause pain, or the one you can do lying down, if that's comfortable for you. There might be another form of energy work that suits you perfectly, or perhaps something that is not so much about energy. I feel you should be proud of yourself for persisting as long as you have and maintaining enough faith and discipline to practice the exercises and meditations while experiencing no improvement. Mayber it's time to let others do some of the work for you through their prayers or by having someone else work on you. My heart goes out to you.

IAM2,

I certainly won't argue with what a Master of the art would say.

My assumption about his practice was that his movements were aggravating his condition. When I do something like this (playing around with forms of exercise/meditation) and I get crampage or what not, I examine the pain and think about it. What hurt when? What hurts now? What was I doing? Did I feel strain at any point that was significantly greater than another during the exercise?

I'll shift, for a while, to a more passive approach (like very subtle movements or even simply imagining I am doing the movements), and wait for the pain to pass, then more gradually and consciously make the movements in the future.

I totally see your point about not knowing *how* this person is practicing. Less information = less accurate diagnosis.

It was just my fear that the talk about pain might have been the wrong information at the wrong time.

Tjapukai,

Did you have the back pain before you start learning the SFQ?
If you had it before you start and it has become unbearable, I would stop.
Do check with your doctor.

If you have the pain after you start, I would stop doing the active exercise standing until the pain is gone.
In addition, check to see if your posture is correct.
I have stop doing part of the exercise from time to time when my body is telling me it is not acceptable.
You ARE your own best judge to that, listen to your own body.

The sitting mediation is best when you just want to slow down. Do sit comfortably and DON'T do all those advance yoga technique, crossing your legs. There is nothing wrong by just sitting in a chair to do the meditation for beginners.

For some advance practitioners, the sitting meditation actually is more advance qigong practice than slowing down. That is another topic.

When you have physical pain that brings enough concern, don't force it.
Many SFQ practitioners stated in this forum that we do experience discomfort before getting better for some conditions.
However, again YOU are your own best judge to what/when to stop/continue.

I experienced back pain when I first started. I am glad that I had posted the question and get some insights. I did the active exercise sitting until the back pain is gone. Then I follow the posture test and slowly ease back to the full active exercise.

This is the link to the old post
http://www.learningstrategies.com/forum/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000280.html

It can be trying too hard too. That can bring up much higher expectation to yourself. It will cause frustration as well. Works against going into emptiness.

No one expects you to feel the same way or experience the same as anyone else. That "no one" should include yourself. Give yourself time to experience and learn. Give yourself credit for starting.

If it is not right for you, then stop.
If you want to give it another try, do so first by focus letting the pain heal.

[This message has been edited by Bluebird (edited October 28, 2004).]

Tjapukai
You have been placed in the Saturday Meditation. This will make it all work.

Good luck

Justcappy

I had no back pain prior to doing SFQ. I try to keep my weight balanced on my feet, knees slightly bent, pelvis tucked forward, shoulders relaxed. I experience lower and upper back pain. The back pain is a relatively minor issue compared to my perceived lack of any benefits, and my inability to go into the emptiness. Monkey mind never ceases, which makes an hour-long session almost unbearable.
Thanks to all for your replies.

I have had back pain as you describe when beginning SFQ as well as other forms of Qigong. I've found that it has to do with the way I am holding my body - somewhere I'm holding tension rather than being relaxed while in the posture you describe - it's my "idea" of what the posture should be rather than relaxing into it.

For me, I feel the energy blockage (pain, tension - however I am experiencing it) and then can adjust my body to a more relaxed position. Usually I find that I need to straighten my spine a little more, or I have tension in my shoulders by holding them up rather than allowing them to relax - resulting in a burning pain around my shoulder blades.

I'm not suggesting that the exact same thing will be true for you, but if you are gentle with yourself and listen to your body, you will find the truth of your pain.

Blessings,
Jenny

Blessings,
Jenny

This sounds like a meditation related issue, and there I have some experience.

Did you ever consider your consciousness of the monkey chatter as a form of real progress? Many people do not even realize that this stuff is going on inside of them. Once you become conscious of it, you become conscious of a source of suffering that's been there the whole time, running along with you unawares.

And here is something you may not have known: experiencing stillness is no small feat. That is the big one that people meditate a very long time trying to accomplish.

Your desire for results is probably creating a great amount of the energy that is fueling the monkey chatter. That is, the desire to have progress is stirring up the monkeys.

Here is where paradox occurs. Your desire and efforts for progress are the very things that keep you from progress. The answer is counter-intuitive. Stop trying to progress. Let go of your need for the stillness. When you let go and stop caring so much, it'll come to you.

Try this:

Take a completely passive approach. Instead of trying to make progress, simply observe with no real goals except to be mindful of what is happening. Allow your thoughts and feelings to come and go.

It's like the sky. Imagine that stillness is always there, like the blue of the sky is always there. You are in the universe and the universe is in you. This is a fact. I mean, you're made of stardust for Pete's sake. Intend for the universe and you to merge together. Just intend. There doesn't have to be an orgasmic fanfare of enlightenment.

Your thoughts and feelings (monkey chatter) are like the clouds in the sky. They come, they go. Hey, that one looks like a dragon eating a snow cone. Weird. Let it pass. Sooner or later, the sky will clear and you'll think, "Hey! I'm not thinking any thoughts!" Whoops. There's a cloud (the thought that you're not thinking any thoughts). That's ok. The sky is for clouds as much as it is for blue. So, just let it go.

You'll notice that once you start a-thinkin' after stillness, there's a bunch of other thoughts, too. Don't lust for progress. Well, if you do, just observe that. Another cloud. Just let go and observe. Stillness will come again.

This struggle you've shared with us sounds to me like the crux of your problems. Once you relax and let go of your attachments, your back pain might mysteriously subside for no apparent reason.

Good luck.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited October 28, 2004).]

Hi,
It's great that so many people are trying to help here.
As you post Tjapukai, your practice and experience get clearer.
It seems from your last post, that your feelings about the success, or point to your practice, your perceived inability to get into the emptiness, and your busy mind, are higher on the list than the back discomfort. Perhaps that, being frosting on the cake!
May I suggest another approach, within the realm of SFQ practice.
-'Starting over' from the beginning. There is you, and there is SFQ. The practice brings benefits. This is a fact. They may be slow coming or fast, cyclic, bring great changes, bring plateaus, etc.. Inherently, it is good. So , don't place a negative message in the practice.
- SFQ is message healing, or signal healing. This goes beyond physical healing applications. The message is what you charge something with. It sets manifestation in motion. It manifests, quickly, with confidence and a focused intention. Put a positive message back in your practice.
-Engage with SFQ in a way that allows you to 'enjoy' and 'relax'. More like nap time, or a warm bath. A time of rejuvenation. A positive break. Comfortable.
-Now, to get your experience in this mode, change your position if necessary, and the time. Build it up, slowly. Start with 10 minutes. Maybe laying down, doing small universe. You are just going to lay down, relax, and focus your mind on this one exercise for ten minutes. No pressure, no long session. A time to relax. Find a position(laying or sitting) that you are comfortable in. Really comfortable. Allow yourself to really relax. Set a doable goal, like ten minutes of small universe, comfortable position, "focused mind". (smile too!)
I wouldn't look at mind activity as negative in any way. Don't react to your mind's activity. Strike a healthy working relationship. Engage with the master's energy to help you initiate and/or define this. It is good, to give the mind a rest. I find the mind receptive to this. I also find it receptive to exercising focus. It doesn't have to be perfect. You work together, to slowly build something. Some relaxation, and an exercise in focus, for a brief time. Set a doable goal. It can be minutes, regarding the mind. I would prepare and focus, the day before. Start with the message. " I am going to lay down and relax tomorrow, and do small universe for ten minutes. I will focus my mind on the exercise. I will relax deeper than I ever have, and start my practice on the right foot. I will build on this each week." Something like that. Again, ask your master's energy for help with this message. It can , of course , be briefer or differ from this. I just want to give you an idea. Focus it towards the next day. Stay aware of the goal, set the stage, keep the agreement. Be positive during this time. This is part of the work/focus. Afterwards, reflect on how you did, if you relaxed, did you have some moments of your mind just focusing on the exercise, etc. Were you comfortable...

I hope you give this a try. Short , and sweet, and building on that.
Your practice is not in a good place, where it is at. Earlier guidance to push longer, would still be a valid answer, but there are many, many other choices too. Quality, is much more important than quantity. This should be a positive experience for you. Experiencing relaxation at deeper levels will help you with the emptiness part. There is 'no' hurry to achieve this. No pressure. No failure. The fact that you practice, is the bottom line good thing. You are making the effort to improve. This is the immediate, and important, success. You are doing the work. How fast or how high is secondary, to this great intention. This intention is postive, and is healing energy that effects the whole. Working the physical part of the exercise , sometimes keeps you in that. That is okay too. With the right attitude and redefining your practice, you can make this work for you. There isn't a right way, or a wrong way. Within the practice, there is good , better, and best. Best, can mean, what is best for you , to allow you to start this out on the right foot, and begin to gain from the practice.
If you want to, you can consciously release thoughts you have or had. Look at it all as energy. If a thought doesn't support you, isn't good for you, send it back to the universe as extra energy you don't need. There may seem to be an endless stream of thought, but it isn't. Again, don't react, just release. Or, if focusing the mind, just do that, with no other thoughts. If one comes, simply go back to the focus, again, without reaction.
love,
gallen

I hesitate to add after gallen's positive instruction, but...

Two phrases I've used Before doing meditation are:
"I give myself permission to use this time only for my meditation. I choose to use this time for my meditation".

"I choose to experience the meditation fully and completely, and leave all analysis and reflection of the experience until after I have completed my meditation".

I just use these statements as intentions I'm communicating to myself. They are not rules that have to be followed.

Remember to honestly smile, and to smile at yourself should you notice your practice is not what "you think" it should be. Because is it perfect the way it is, right now. It may be different later, and it will be perfect then too. It is always exactly what you need for you purpose. Express gratitude at the conclusion of your meditation for your experience and your guidance.

You are perfection.
Iam2

Hi Iam2,
Thanks for reinforcing the message part! This is a 'core' part of SFQ. It is seemingly simple, and perhaps overlooked a bit.
From this last retreat, I set some goals. They were physically challenging for me. I found that by putting the message out, and, holding that focus for the whole day, enabled me to accomplish my goals. As they were challenging for me, I found that if I was half assed about it (excuse my English), I couldn't accomplish it. The days I woke up, with my intention and focus, placed the day before, I made my goals. If I picked up the possibility, more casually , during the day, I came up short. This is all relative to what I was trying to do, and me working with me. Certainly, the message can be, immediate, and at the moment. I set some high goals that required a held focus with nothing other than that focus. I blanked my mind, and didn't let it take me anywhere else. This blanking, took place over days prior to the retreat. Constantly releasing unproductive or negative thoughts, and focusing more and more on a time period for transformational work.
I don't like to define someone else's message for them, so thank you again, for sharing yours. You are really good at keeping the basics to the forefront. Emphasizing the smile too, which is paramount, in really letting go and relaxing, allowing joy to fill oneself, and all the self-healing that comes within that state of being.
love,
gallen

its good to do sfqg two hours a day if you don't have anything else to do, some people have jobs and other commitments

jm, I hear ya. I'm there too. I wish I had more time. My practice is up and down. Sometimes getting out of bed early doesn't have much appeal... and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I only do 10 or 15 minutes in the morning. Sometimes is just the small universe in a kneeling position because I'm having a hard time getting going. Every bit helps, and I remind myself this is exactly the experience I need.

It's all a matter of choices. I know I can go with less sleep when I'm doing more meditations, and it's hard to do the less sleep first. It's better to do the more meditation first. I can skip a coffee break and do 15 to 20 minutes here and there. Do a half our at lunch.

My best experiences have been when I make a regular daily practice. It's better still with the more time I spend. My personal best regular practice, so far, has been 1/2 - 1 hour in the morning, 1/2 at lunch and 1/2 - 1 hour in the evening.

I have done longer meditations but not regularly. Perhaps sometime soon, I choose to do a daily meditation of 2 or so hours and see what happens.

I seldom get a two hour meditation in. I try and do one every two weeks. I follow the lunar cycle, picking a evening close to the new and full moons.

Nice discuss, but I hope Tjapukai is getting what he needs when he started this thread.

You are perfection.
Iam2

When I had back pains from practise doing Small Universe Meditation , Only, cleared this up for me. There is a Ratio that Chunyi gives for Small Universe and Qigong exercise,the Small Universe is used more than the exercise.

Or call for someone to heal you.

Jeff

Aloha jm,

Throughout the 6-day retreat, Chunyi expressed time and time again that Spring Forest Qigong isn't just something to do for 20 minutes, an hour. It is something that one implements into everything they do.

Notice in the manual when he talks about walking and sleeping. Where in your daily schedule you can implement just the concepts presented there.

He likes to remind people about taking time during the day to do the neck exercises found in the Harvesting of Chi or just taking a couple seconds to smile and do the breathing. Living in with Love, kindness and forgiveness is also healing. Master Lin is always emphasizing the healing that happens from doing good things daily for others. Not only is it a positive expression of our selves and energy, but it gets us out of stewing in our own stuff!

Go into the emptiness
Use your Consciousness
Keep it simple

Much Love, Shawn

[This message has been edited by Shawn_Grim (edited November 02, 2004).]

to this is not working:
i read your message and immediately felt great compassion for you. you practiced qigong for months and felt no relief and so gradually you lose hope.
about 3 and a half years ago i too bought the program and started practicing the active excercises (sp?) and the small universe meditation. after 8 months nothing happened . i have spinal stenosis plus severe arthritis in both knees and hips plus i have parkinson's disease. as a result i am unable to walk without a walker and even with that i can only walk about 25 - 50 feet at best. i am house bound unless someone takes me out in a wheelchair.
so after 8 months of calling learning strategies (what am i doing wrong) and with no clear answers i gave up. i should mention that i was doing a program called "centerpoint" at the same time and i did TM (transcendental meditation.) my life was one of hurrying from qigong to centerpoint to tm day in and day out. I was wound so tight with scheduling these activities that i couldn't let any healing in even if it clamored at my door. then i gave everything up. the hell with it all i said. i played tape programs and music and read and i relaxed and got used to my pain which was so severe that i would fall many times. but i got used to it nonetheless. so was my retirement - not as i had pictured it but we do adjust to difficult things. i never put the qigong program on the shelf though - i kept it on the corner of my desk even though i did't look into it again for another 2 plus years. then i got the "invitation" togo to the qigong retreat. my heart jumpedand said GO. after many phone calls i signed up for it. then having paid my tuition and made all the necessary arrangements, i opened the program and reread the booklet that was in it. let me say that i read this book when i first bought the program as i do whenever there is a book of instructions enclosed. as i read (that which i had already read) i was amazed that it told me things that never registered with me the first time. like - the pain may get worse before it gets better . i listened to the tapes again and heard chunyi lin say the same thing and to hang in - not give up - that healing will come when your body and mind are readdy for it.
in the 3 months between signing up for the retreat and going to it, i did much soul searching about my illness and pain. from sonewhere in the universe came love and blanketed my life. i started to honor my body and the pain. i thanked it for knocking at the door of my consciousness to tell me that i hadn't done a good job in my youth, putting work and responsibilities before me (the inner me) i never did anything slow because if i worked fast i could get 2x as much done. i relaxed in all that i did (in a sense i had to because parkinson's slows one down. but it was also that i deliberately relaxed as i did the qigong excersizes. i do them with love in my heart and when chunyi lin says "put a smile on your face" mine is genuine not contrived as it once was.
SO can you take anything from my story that can help you??? i sense that you need love and so i send you love. let it blanket you and warm you and fill you with joy. relax relax relax!!! take 2 weeks off from doing qigong and when you are filled with joy go back to it with a new outlook. reread the booklet and relisten to the tapes. you may see and hear something new. pperhaps when chunyi lin says "put a smile on your face''
perhaps yours will be genuine also.
i know my story is long. i didn't want to leave out anything that might insprie you to continue doing qigong but with a new attitude. good luck and God bless you
love and light
marrisha
(this name means little mary which i was called as a child)

A very uplifting story, Marrisha. Thanks so much for sharing it with us.

Love

Kev