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A "God Helmet"? Thanks for the link - very interesting will have to find out more about this man's work!
After a quick glance it reminds me of a time when we were out in the country near a lake and one night we could literally feel a wall of energy on the balcony of the cottage we were staying in. Apparently this was merely something to do with the magnetic field surrounding the water.
Will look into Persinger's work in more detail. Thanks for letting me know about him.
best wishes
Ingrid

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You're most welcome, Ingrid ... and thanks for letting me know you found
Persinger interesting. Best, HF

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Something/Someone that is orchestrating the Universe is more intelligent than man. There is a cleverness, a systematic genius, an orchestration, a fantastic order in control of the Universe. Could nothing put in process such a fantastic order of ochestration in nature, in the human body, in space(orbits for instance).

If the universe arose from nothing out of chaos then it came from something far less intelligent than a human, and a human hasn't a clue on how to get out of the bed on Monday morning and master their own bodies never mind make a model of the atom.

Awe makes Faith.

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Dear Grant,

There is a scientific concept called "emergence," which describes how
complexity can arise from simplicity. You can learn more about it at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Succinctly, the idea is that a system which consists of simple ingredients
can give rise to new qualities which appear much more complicated than
the qualities of the original ingredients. The wiki link provides many colorful
examples (no pun intended!), so I encourage you to explore.

Best,

HF

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As far as I know science has only studied the simplicity that is and the simplicity that is, is far, far more complex and ordered than the nothingness of Evolution theory.

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Dear Grant,

We all have a long, long way to go on this journey of discovery. We know
a lot, and we don't know even more. I hope you will share in the
adventure as an instrument of peace and goodwill. Let us work toward the
common goals of mutual benefit and enlightenment.

Best,

HF

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Far more complex than the nothingness of Evolution theory?

I don't know how, exactly, to interpret that.

I find the notion that forms arose from the actions of various elements within a rule-based system to be absolutely amazing. It's far from nothing. It's its own something.

The complexity of all life, I think, is sufficiently accounted for in Evolution, given the astoundingly large amounts of time involved in the process. It seems improbable from a perspective, almost impossible from others, but it isn't impossible... and so we must take the possibility into account.

The universe is composed of materials and is governed by rules that make it likely to produce life given the right circumstances.

Matter may be said to have the property of being inherently self-organizing. It seems to me that it is. Look at the activity of atoms. They seem to do very well in creating all kinds of complex structures all by themselves.

If we give responsibility for the organization of these elements to an intelligent designer, then we must ask, who designed the designer? For surely the designer of all this must be complex. If complexity demands design, then the designer must be designed. But by whom? And who created that being? And so on, ad absurdum.

Well, the designer perhaps just is.... but in that case why couldn't matter and the laws of physics themselves "just be."

It certainly looks in many cases that life must have some sort of intelligence behind it. But, if it is possible for life to form from "random" activity within a rule governed system, and the length of time we are talking about is very, very long, then isn't it probable that life as we know it would exist SOMEWHERE given the chance? And isn't it also likely that this somewhere is HERE?

Do what you may ask others to do regarding your system of belief. Try it on for size. If you really start acting as if Evolutionary Theory is true, and you produce more than a minimal effort at it, you'll see that the world is full in a different way, a wonderful way.

For me, the implications are that we really don't need a God. Perhaps God doesn't exist? Perhaps what we see is what we get? If you get past the apparent emptiness (and here you *really* have to conquer a void, which is what a lot of people give lip-service to in a lot of spiritual rhetoric), you find the world is full of meaning. Meaning that is mundane, but wonderful. Real and tender. Glorious and terrible.

It's just us here on this planet, using our own wits to figure things out and live life. It is in our hearts that justice and love find their creation and their homes. We do not need to rely on God. In fact, we become more responsible. This is it. No one is going to direct us or save us. We must rely on ourselves, on what our species has learned and passed on.

Knowledge can be seen for the fragile and precious thing that it is.... not some commodity that is delivered for obedience to or adherence to a set of instructions. Rather it comes from human curiosity and effort.

I don't know, I find all of that tremendously liberating and beautiful. I find a lot of personal responsibility in it. I see the meaning of my life in it, the importance of treating others in it. Redemption and damnation are in our hands, where they should be. It's all up to us.

The universe wasn't made for us by some caretaker who is going to fix it if we screw up. We aren't completely screwed or saved if we just believe in something. It is up to us to define our own standards and it is up to us to live up to them, for we are our own judges.

It is sad, at times, but sad in a poignant way. And it is glorious and wonderful, for look at what we are and all that we have achieved... and without God, Angels, or Devils.

*shrug*

I think it's wonderful, and far from empty or bleak. It makes expressions of love all that more meaningful and violence all the more terrible.

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Dear Friends,

I found the following debate very interesting ...

====================================================================

Shermer vs. Dembski

Michael Shermer goes head to head with noted Intelligent Design theorist William Dembski, fellow of the Discovery Institute. The devout and the heretical alike will gain insight from this fascinating interview, brought to you from AudioMartini.

http://www.skeptic.com/podcasts/audiomartini_7Dec05.mp3

====================================================================

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Thanks for the great link. I've been on holiday for a couple of weeks so it's great to be back again!
Re. intelligent design - I didn't realise how there were branches of it which were actively seeking to distance themselves from Creationism. Ironically, however, it doesn't matter whether your "intelligent designer" is the God described in Genesis, a neo-buddhist idea of an "intrinsic intelligence" or a UFO - they are all still concepts at the end of the day and are equally unprovable in a scientific sense. But we've already debated that one exhaustively on another post haven't we?!
I love the way ID/Creationists always say that Darwinism is a theory and can therefore be disproved. What they don't realise, is that by definition in science all theories must be substantiated (as Darwinism has been). Which means that Intelligent Design isn't even a theory as it cannot be substantiated - it's merely an hypothesis.
Oh well. I'll carry on believing in my teapot in the sky because it makes me feel better!
best wishes
Ingrid :0)

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Dear Ingrid,

Welcome back! Hope your break was nice.

What I also found interesting in the Shermer vs. Dembski debate was
Shermer's acknowledgment that the ID camp has a stronger argument from
physics/cosmology rather than biology, and he is right! Unfortunately,
the debate was centered around the biology argument, since biology is of
broader interest due to the recent lawsuits to bring ID into the U.S.
biology curriculum. However, the biology argument is perhaps the weakest
in the ID arsenal, because the evidence for evolution is simply
overwhelming. Notice how Dembski himself offered his own indirect support
for evolution by not being able to dismiss it when asked by the moderator.
The best thing an intellectually honest ID proponent is able to say about
evolution is that an external agent (God, Martians, Mind, the Great Teapot
in the Sky, etc ... ) somehow sparked and/or guided the natural
evolutionary process. Anyone who dismisses evolution outright only
betrays his ignorance of the evidence. Sure, he's free to invoke God at
every step, but doing so would be like saying God throws every lightening
bolt from the sky, hardly an intellectually honest worldview.

I thought Dembski's best point was to emphasize the difference between
"materialism" and "science." I think that's a distinction that most lay
people don't fully appreciate. "Materialism" is a worldview that the
material, physical universe is all that there is, and everything can be
naturally, consistently explained without having to invoke external,
supernatural agents. Materialism is a belief, and it requires as much
faith to believe in it as it does to believe in God (theism). In other
words, both materialism and theism are fundamentally matters of faith.
One is not inherently more "scientific" than the other, because there is
scientific evidence which is completely consistent with either worldview.
Not all scientists are materialists. And certainly not all of science
supports materialism.

At the beginning of the 20th century (before the quantum mechanics
revolution), the state of scientific evidence did lean toward materialism,
which is why it was so successful in overturning religious authority and
superstition during the Enlightenment Era. For example, when Ben Franklin
clearly demonstrated that lightening arose from purely natural, electrical
forces, and that it could be fairly easily controlled to save countless
lives, he overnight dethroned the millenia-long view that lightening arose
from a wrathful God or evil spirits. (At the time, ringing a bell tower
during a thunderstorm was believed to ward off the evil spirits causing
the storm, but oddly enough, those responsible for ringing the bells were
the ones who were being electrocuted by the lightening! Ben Franklin's
lightening rod solved the real problem once and for all.) Thus, one by
one, science was able to give natural explanations of the universe,
displacing the need to resort to the need for divine explanations.

However, during the 20th century, the discovery of quantum mechanics threw
a serious curve-ball at the materialists. Without needing to use the
hyped-up, New Agey views of quantum mechanics which recent
pseudo-scientific authors have been guilty of misrepresenting, quantum
mechanics simply showed that at its fundamental level, the universe was
probabilistic in nature, not deterministic. Materialists hate this,
because fundamental to the materialist worldview is determinism, that is,
A causes B causes C causes D, and if you knew the conditions of the
universe at any given time, you could with perfect precision predict its
state at any later time (and hence, you don't need to invoke a God in the
process). Quantum mechanics said, no, even if you knew the conditions
perfectly, there's an X percent chance that the universe will be in a
particular state in the future, and a Y percent chance it will be in
another state, etc. Thus, it opened a fundamental door for God (or Mind)
to influence the material process.

And many other discoveries were made during the 20th century which
challenged the materialistic mindset, for example: 1) There was Hubble's
discovery that the universe was expanding, which implied it had a
beginning, which fit the creationist view much more neatly. More
generally, materialists are unable to logically dismiss the need for a
"First Cause." 2) Then physicists began determining the physical
constants in nature (e.g. gravitational constant, Plank's constant, speed
of light, fine-structure constant, cosmological constant, coupling
constants of the nuclear forces, etc.) with great accuracy, and realizing
that if the constants differed only a little from their measured values,
the universe would be completely different and unable to support life as
we know it. 3) Then Godel came along and logically proved that it is
impossible to construct a completely formal, consistent, and
self-contained mathematical system, and Godel's Theorem was later used by
Lucas and Penrose to logically prove that the human mind can not be
adequately described as a computer program, thus effectively ruling out a
completely reductionist explanation of human consciousness based on
current science.

So, today, the "Matter vs. Mind" debate has revived with intelligent,
rational, scientific arguments on both sides (and great counter-arguments,
of course). Those who prefer purely "matter" would be wise to acknowledge
that their stance fundamentally requires as much faith as a theist's.
And those who prefer "mind" would be wise to acknowledge there is a
definite mechanistic component to the universe which cannot be flippantly
dismissed and re-attributed to the actions of gods, fairies, and demons.
A balance exists somewhere between these extremes, and Truth lies in that
balance.

Let the debate continue!

Best,

HF

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