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AHHHHHHHHH! My favorite type of discussion! I want to tell you how much I have enjoyed this entire thread! And I cannot help but put in my most un-scientific, most un-religeous 2 cents. Pardon me, I am new, and I have stumbled upon JOYOUS discussion of my favorite subjects!

RE-EVALUATION of BELIEFS! From a scientific aspect, one must first define the word "Belief". Then, one must understand the functions of a belief and how a belief works to perform that function. ( I am a layman so I do not have all the fancy words). A belief is a tool, designed by the observer of matter, in order to create the world-view of that observer. The material world cannot be observed, either by science or by spiritual/religeous platforms, unless there is a belief in operation.

What one observer believes about anything at all, is what that observer experiences, no matter if it is of a scientific nature, mundane nature, chaos, spritual, death..etc.

Belief functions as the "glue" that gives one person a reality, and many people, a co-created reality. Our present scientists are just now finding that out. Even they cannot do an experiment without BELIEF affecting the results on basic levels.

Joint Reality is based on common belief of all entities (people) concerned with that world-view reality. A story is told to others and sworn to be true, whether or not it is, and a contageon takes place. BELIEFS can be spread like a dis-ease.

Belief is the tool through which human beings view their material conditions and belief is the story they spread about those conditions, one to another, until those conditions seem to be set in stone, ie., TRUTH, Truth is what everyone agrees it is, according to the latest scientific or spiritual or religeous findings.

It is through belief that we, in joint endevor, hold the energy of the world in focus and call it earth, or a place. There is NO PLACE if we do not agree upon a belief in a place. There is no time at all, if we, in joint endevor, do not give it birth through our belief. In fact, it is our belief that provides us with the concepts of violence, death, Birth, pain, hunger, peace, war, science, extinction, etc....change any belief held by a great many people...and the entire cosmos will change to reflect that BELIEF.

Personally, I think we are a very young technology...and as I heard one very well respected SCIENTIST say on television a few years ago: "What if there existed a technology that was 1000 years ahead of us...or 10,000 years ahead of us in the universe??? Would they be even aware of us?"

The Key lies in knowing that everything you think, comes from a belief, first. And if you don't like that belief, thank the Giant Ignorant Force you would have the universe be, that it is changable.

Love to all and to all a good night...I really loved your thread! =o)

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Dear shyspook,
Thanks for your enthusiastic post.

If we think the world into existence. Who thinks the thinker into existence in the first place?
Actually let's not bother answering that one or we'll be here all night again, won't we?!
Chicken and egg. Chicken and egg.... and on it goes...!

Your ideas actually remind me of a poem my mum once told me which relates to Bishop Berkely's philosophy of idealism (Bishop Berkely's idea apparently was that there is no such thing as physical matter, only souls and ideas). The query raised with this philosophy was, if things only exist through perception/observation do they still exist when there's no one there to perceive them?

The poem goes like this: (it's being spoken by someone sitting alone under a tree in a college quad)

I'm sorry to bother you, God,
But there's one thing I find rather odd
And that's how this tree
Continues to be
When there's no one about in the quad.

Dear Sir, your astonishment's
I'm always about in the quad
And that's why the tree
Continues to be
Observed by, yours faithfully
God.

Apparently on this occasion, having a notion of God perceiving everything solves that particular problem. But of course we can ask who perceives God in the first place etc.etc...

Best wishes
Ingrid

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Hi shyspook and Ingrid,

Thanks for your great posts and poem.

Personally, I believe there must be an underlying, objective reality which is entirely independent of human beliefs. For example, there was a time when the consensus was that the Earth was flat and at the center of the universe. Did that belief make it true? Likewise, there is a signficant portion of our current population who believe in Santa Claus and a certain red-nosed reindeer. Does that guarantee their existence? From these simple examples, one can roughly define "truth" as being that which is so despite what anyone believes about it. Of course, that doesn't mean that we are anywhere near to understanding the truth about our universe and existence today. For all we know, our current best grasp of objective reality may be as flimsy as a child's handle on Santa Claus. Nevertheless, in order for us to approach that truth, we have to first acknowledge it exists outside of ourselves, independent of us.

HF

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I don't think beliefs are really all that designed. Even when we "choose" our beliefs, I think something is going on that is very much unlike design or creation.

I describe belief systems as living systems of information that live along with us. (Do we posses our beliefs? Do they possess us? Or is the relationship somewhat more nuanced than that?) We can interact with the system, and we influence it as it influences us, but sometimes trying to control it and think about your own mind is like trying to run from your own legs or see your own eyes without a reflection.

The human mind is complex. The interactions of beliefs in any belief system are not simple.

The more I muck around with my own beliefs, the more I see it as some kind of organic, self-organizing system with a life of its own. You can influence it, but the process isn't always linear, and what you see or expect isn't always what you get.

Honestly, I find many simplistic approaches to belief change pretty insulting. People just aren't that simple, and neither is life.

Sometimes you want to be as realistic as possible, sometimes you want to fight against what you think is true or see where your imagination can take you. Sometimes your are deluded, other times you're just afraid. Sometimes an unrealistic belief makes you achieve more than others think possible, sometimes it's debilitating.

The mind is not a singular entity, it is plural. We are of many minds and many ways at any given moment. Many systems act in parallel. One set usually obtains, but it obtains only for a time and its rule is colored by the many other activated sets that "lost" but still, most likely, affect the mind and body.

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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's own ignorance." Confucius.
This was the thought for the day on the EFT website today and I thought it might contribute well to this thread as this is clearly a thread of questers!

Ingrid ;0)

PS: Hartreefoch, your post reminds me of a yarn I had with a good friend in a pub one night. He is very much into his philosophies and we were having a "life the universe and everything" conversation. Near the end he turned to me and said "So what colour is the table in front of me then?" (it was brown) and I trying to sound clever after a few beers said "Purple!" to which he replied "Wrong! The answer is - what table?" Needless to say our conversation ended on the subject of The Matrix and spoons!)

Last edited by Ingrid; 09/14/06 08:42 PM.
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Hartreefoch;

You mention that there is the belief in Santa Claus and yet in this phyiscal universe there is no fat man in a red suit flying around in a sleigh pulled by a red nosed reindeer at the prescibed time of year.

This is a valid point. It also points out that maybe a person is in denial. Maybe it is only hope or wishes. On the other hand it might be looked at as a challenge to someone to genetically engineer a flying reindeer and a sled that is composed of materials lighter than air. A pocket transporter to quietly deliver presents, doing good in secret, to all the children who have been good all year, that has been kept track of by the home security system.

One thing I believe and that you overlook is that you treat the external universe as a unfeeling thing. And in response it reacts like a child who has been ignored and won't talk to you. It has tried to communicate with you and you don't listen to the language it speaks. Therefore you don't get any desert.

I really think the Universe is just like a person. If you treat it like your friend and share some respect you will be treated in kind.

Learning to let go of your own beliefs is a big step to learning about anything.
I believe there are pockets of consciousness in everything we experience here and they all have their own personality. How you treat and interact with this Universe is still inside of you, just like developing good manners will help you in dealing with others. This is demonstratable. It works inside and outside.

Not directing this at you or anyone, but as an example if a persons energy level is low they are not much likely to make anything happen, their emotional level slips and they only see the negative side of things which seem to continually come true. Until they get this energy thing going the right way not much will change in their life.

When the energy is right , everything is possible, life is good. Everything is important but nothing really matters.

Jeff

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Sorry I am so late in getting back to this. My computer or my isp. one or the other is sick and I don't know which.

That IS a good piece of poetry! And it seems to end all discussion. However, God is a man -made concept. We haven't run into other sentient beings who can dispute this issue, yet.

But man made god to explain to himself that great power that resides within himself. Essentially, the human body IS virtually the house of some greater awareness and intelligence than we CAN exhibit in our ordinary conscious awareness on an every day mundane level...reality as we percieve it.

And because the presence of all that power that is residing, seemingly within our own brains and bodies, is very uncomfortable for us to acknowledge as ours, we have projected that power outward in the form of GOD, so that we can live with it until such time that we evolve to a state where we can own the power we have been created to own.

Lilo and Stitch is my favorite creation story. It is probably the most accurate creation story, metaphorically speaking, every produced by our society, world wide. It is clearly an intuitive creation in itself and speaks vast volumes about the state of the whole creature called "human being". Individually, we are all a cell in this Concious Human creature. So, in asking what came first, the world, or the human....Well, perhaps, the mad scientist came first...and we are s/he!

Believe what you will. Belief has more to do with an individuals reality than is recognized. It also has more to do with a place called "earth" than is realized. Without the gestalt group called HUMAN creature...who hold the beliefs in place...there may well NOT be an earth at all. Or physical cohesion, either. on this level of existance.. =o)

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Hi hartreefoch & Ingrid, as well!

I guess that if I am to respond with any sense at all, I will have to address the "world is flat" belief. Also, santa clause, which so broke my heart when I was 6 that I beat up the biggest boy on my road for telling me that so called truth. And I was a tiny little girl...he never lived that down!

There is a human consciousness guestalt who, collectively and with great awareness, holds a pool, or bank, if you wish, of beliefs that bring forth the earth and all its creatures. Because we are not yet able to own the huge amount of power and knowledge on an individual scale...we call that entity, GOD, and it seems to us to be made up of "souls" from which each of us springs into physical being through the birth process. So, yes...the world probably was still round because the laws of physics in this world reality says that gravity prevails....it is a belief held by joint cells of the gestalt called human. IN THIS WORLD VIEW. It is not so in all world views. Physics takes on different properties and behaviors in other plains/deminsions/realities or levels of existance. However, the past population was in a state of growth...and were allowed to grow in whatever way they needed to expand into what we are today. A learning process.

As for the reality of Santa Claus, for children under 6, there IS a real santaclause in a state of being created. NO human person over the age of 6 is allowed to continue the belief in Santa Clause...so like creating a bank account of $100, 000.00 in your mind...and then saying, but it cannot happen to me..stops the creation cold in its tracks....we have no santa clause. NO Adult WILL believe in Santa Clause because it seems to be against the laws of getting something for nothing.

So...belief of the full grown and very limited adult mind wins out...in spite of scientific evidence to the contrary. =o)

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can I post anything about this here? My original post is not allowed here. Sorry Babayada...I really cannot understand why not..

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Hey babayada!

That is a wonderful point! Yes! I agree! My Me is Your ME. And just as one person can see throught the eyes of the coyote or the dog, We can ALL see through the eyes of everyone else in the world...we just don't know it yet. We are just beginning to practice it...I found my cat by seeing through it's eyes in a dream, too. I also checked on my son when he was small by becoming the nearest tree to see where he was! Everyone has their moments of great ability..and amazement. We did not seem to believe that we could do those things...and yet, we did do them.

Belief as we utilize it in the world on an individual level, comes to us, first, by our parents and grandparents as they teach us to live in the world. Your body, your brain, your organs and legs are all mirror images of what either you were taught to believe, or what your ancestors were taught to believe and passed on to you through your DNA. How well you see out of your eyes, began with a belief...if you lose your eyesight because you turn 40 years old..and it happens to everyone in the world who has been taught to believe it...it becomes known as true...and just gets amplified all out of shape. NO it is NOT simple...it is CONTAGEOUS. Changing a belief that everyone over 40 chooses to believe in, or that every one over 6 years old chooses to believe in simply because they were told it/think they saw it/ or grew up with it...is very difficult.


I'll try it this way.....TO BE CONTINUED! =O)

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