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Part 2 continued here:

I personally don't think that belief is more than a shaping tool. Like any thing that is given power by thinking of it, or utilizing it, it does have a certain amount of conscious awareness in itself...anything that is energy has self-consciousness, even a miniscule thought. But when a physical body utilizes a thought (belief) to pull together physical matter and events into being it becomes a tool to shape things with. It must have human direction. If it were more than a tool, we would call it a god and worship its power in a church or something.

Fortunately, when I was about 35, I accidently found out through some reading that I could actually CHANGE a belief. and I found it to be one of the most time consuming and difficult things I have ever done in my life. I changed a belief from being a stupid accademic failure, to a college graduate. I changed my beliefs about myself...and my abilities...I became a Reiki Master, and I actually have a bachelors degree in metaphysics....I have been a photoreader for 8 years, too. These labels are the installation of what I would RATHER believe about myself over what I and all my family KNEW I was...just a stupid female upon whom a college education would be wasted. I was suppose to marry, have kids, and be looked after all my days...Beliefs change...and so does reality because of that change...I just did it on purpose. Beliefs are not set in stone, and they do not insist on living your life...for you...YOU choose what you want to believe within the area of the larger human creature entity that is set for the world reality that you have chosen to occupy. There IS no simplistic approach to belief systems..every little cell of your body, Is affected by YOUR beliefs...and also, your body is mine, as well...so your beliefs COULD have an effect upon my body as well...and yes they do. Love ya! =o)

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Hi jeffdengr, =o)

Every time a child is born...the belief in santa claus is (in our culture) begun...then around 5 or 6 years of age...we stop that creation for our children by telling them the "Truth" That creation will someday gather enough collective energy to become a complete Santa Claus in person with a flying reindeer...but only if we stop beating up the dreams of our children before they can create them.

I believe those famous words: Believe and ye shall receive!

What if we told the world a "Truth" about that author that stated he did not exist?

But, then, Earth doesn't exist, either...does it? to some entities...hmm?

=o)

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Hello everyone...

Re. Santa Claus, I thought he was created by Coca Cola sometime in the early to mid twentieth century for commercial reasons! (now was that before or after they took the cocaine out of it?!) He was actually based on an earlier Catholic Saint Nicholas I believe. Ever wondered why Santa wears red and white?

He is pretty much an American creation adopted by some other countries. In Austria and Germany, for example, he doesn't exist in the way he would in the States or here in Britain. In those countries it's supposedly a baby Jesus (Christkind) and angels who bring the presents on Christmas Eve (not Christmas day).

I thought I might add another angle to the discussions which have emerged about perception/creation of reality. I think "belief" is not necessarily always the same as "perception". Also, if children do "believe" in e.g. Santa Claus up until the age of 6, why does Santa not exist thanks to that shared belief? (there are a lot of under-six year-olds out there) Do things only "manifest" if believed by adults? Why, is the power of children's belief in Santa substandard to the power of a post-six year-old's NON belief in Santa Claus? If their belief is not substandard, then where are all the dragons and witches and ghouls? Generally in the case of such things as Santa Claus and fairy tales etc. I do actually think that there is room in the world for fiction and symbolism. Just because an idea exists, doesn't mean that it has therefore automatically manifested literally in "reality", or is even going to.

Returning back to the original topic of conversation - Evolution and Creation. Perhaps women weren't therefore literally created from the rib of a guy called Adam, just because someone wrote it down a long time ago?

Ingrid ;0)

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Quote:

Also, if children do "believe" in e.g. Santa Claus up until the age of 6, why does Santa not exist thanks to that shared belief? (there are a lot of under-six year-olds out there) Do things only "manifest" if believed by adults? Why, is the power of children's belief in Santa substandard to the power of a post-six year-old's NON belief in Santa Claus? If their belief is not substandard, then where are all the dragons and witches and ghouls?


Well, actually they DO manifest Santa Claus, just not in the same way we adults would think of it as a manifestation. Surely you've been to a shopping mall at any point between the middle of November (or earlier in some places) and Christmas Eve, and there he is, in his castle or igloo, or what have you!!!

Just because the manifestation isn't clothed in the "reality" we students of manifestation would consider "proper", I think these kiddies do a bang-up job of getting the whiskered one to appear, and besides that, they've even trained their parents to make sure to help them "write" to the man in red. And in Canada, any child can address a note to Santa, stuff it in an envelope and simply put HOHOHO on the outside of the envelope, and it'll get delivered (and in some very special cases, answered personally) - all the requests are read by a very special group of Santa's "helpers" at our Canadian Postal Corporation. I'd say that's some pretty strong manifestation from the wee ones.

On a side note, I actually believed in Santa until almost eleven years old. Because I was already used to seeing things others didn't see, just because I couldn't see him, didn't mean he didn't exist - I just figured he had to be at the North Pole to supervise the elves and reindeer, and was truly disappointed, disillusioned and majorily ticked off when my mother hauled me out of bed that fateful Christmas to clue me into her "reality".

Regards the dragons, witches and ghouls - since the focus is only for a week or so before Hallowe'en (more if you live in a highly commercialized city), the manifestation of these, in the form of "trick-or-treater's" running through the streets is pretty real - and I well remember a few Hallowe'ens where some pretty spooky stuff happened. So who's to say that this isn't some sort of "manifestation" from the minds of the young? Just because it doesn't fit our "adult" parameters, again, doesn't mean that it "ain't so"!

Giggles and cheers!
Unis

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Too right Unis!
Let's hear it for the kids! (and that of course includes the kids within all of us too!!)
:0) xo Ingrid

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PS: I will now admit publicly that I believed that Falcor existed after watching the Neverending Story at the age of 10. Or at the very least I definitely wanted him to exist!

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Dear Friends,

I am all for beliefs which are positive and which help us become better
people. I hope yours will help you toward this end.

With regard to Santa, let's keep in mind that in some sense, we adults
enslave our children with this jolly caricature. We use Santa as a
convenient way to get our kids to behave. "Naughty or nice?" Indeed, the
moment a child realizes the truth about Santa, she becomes enlightened and
forever freed from the trance. That moment is one to be celebrated, not
bemoaned.

Truly, how many of us willingly enjoy our trances? How many would dearly
hold onto Santa forever? When we fully awaken from our trances, perhaps
we will find even greater power and freedom in our new enlightenment than
we have ever known while still entranced. The Truth shall set you free.

I wish you all such enlightenment in the Truth.

HF

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The childlike trance is a good thing. Our minds are fluidic when we are children. As we age, adults feel the need to change/control the way our minds operate, the kind of answers we allow ourselves to find. Adults say things like “Santa does not exist”, “your invisible friend does not exist” and “people are not surrounded by auras of light”. Adults define things for us, the higher vibrations in our child’s mind slows down and become crystallized. We become ensnared by the collective consciousness. This state is like a bubble that state holds us in place.

The human mind is capable of un-imaginable feats of genius when we enter a trance state or flow state. What sort of state of mind did Leonardo da Vinci enter when he created? Was his consciousness like a reed, free to move in the wind or was it like an aging tree that is brittle and can break in the wind? Most adults permanently live their lives in a state of sleep. They can only react to the outside stimuli; a sort of computer program with many thousands of reactions programmed in, but programmed reactions none the less. Now the computer runs very fast and it seems like we have awareness of the world around us, but do we really? Children do. Children's states of minds are closer to enlightment than adults, they just lack the experience of age.

We tell ourselves, “I think, therefore I am”. But how many of us have had truly original thoughts that did not already exist somewhere in the collective unconscious? How many of us can control our reactions? Can we dance when a doctor tells us we have cancer? Can we laugh when we see a rattlesnake? Can we see world events from the perspective of Moslems when the Pope attacks Mohammed?

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You can say that this universe follows the law of physics but it will also follow the laws of beliefs and bureaucracy. Just as laws do not have to follow common sense and logic. They are law and become a reality because of the precedure on which they are based.

The legislated law has to be interpreted just as the law of physics also has to be interpreted
and figured out how to apply it.

Santa Claus is a popular belief and through the proceedure of legislation could be brought into reality. Santa Claus is now a Law. The law is real. This isn't my favorite way of doing things but illustrates a way to make it happen.

People from all over the world have underlying beliefs that are not so visible, like wanting to live a long healthy life, they want to have a prosperous life, they want to be happy and successful. We all share these values in common, consciously or unconsciously. How they interpret these values and bring them into reality is their own art work.

If you believe in Santa Claus then how you believe and make real St Nick is your own interpretation, enjoy it. Don't let a scientist or politician take away your happiness because they cannot see or fit it into their procedure. They need to stop being lazy and figure it out, not point fingers and pass the buck. If they want the answers then they can do the work.

Aloha

Jeff

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Coyote, Jeff,

What bothers me about your romantic notions that the universe rewards you
when your relate to it in a sweetly harmonious manner is that it often
(usually?) simply does not. "Why do bad things happen to good people?" is
a cliche, as well as the title of a good book. Indeed, if one looks
objectively at nature (not from the standpoint of a stereotyped,
closed-minded scientist, but just from the standpoint of a objective,
rational realist), one sees that the normal order of things is filled with
unfeeling, unfriendly occurrences, often wiping out entire communities and
even civilizations. Are we to believe the universe is just expressing its
wrath upon those it deems unworthy to live? Look at all the natural
disasters - hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, volcanoes,
asteroid strikes, supernovas. What about the countless innocents who have
died due to epidemics, hunger, and war? Where do these very real things
fit into your fuzzy-wuzzy view of the universe? (And why doesn't the
antelope hire a lawyer to sue the lion when it loses its loved one during
a Serengeti slaughter?)

And why bash scientists as being unsympathetic to all of this? Of all the
people in the world, scientists are at the forefront of sacrificing their
time, energy, and resources to help us cope with the realities of nature.
We see reality for what it is, not what we want it to be, and we act
accordingly. There's a certain humility in this. We know our limits, and
we try to do the best that we can to help as many of us survive in an
often unfriendly universe. Sure, it's not as romantic as your Santa Claus
world-view, but when all is said and done, we have helped our race
survive, and we have succeeded where eons of mystics have failed.

I'm not saying the current scientific enterprise is perfect ... by all
means, no. Like any human endeavor, it has weaknesses. But it is
self-correcting, and the central search for what is true drives it.
Before you trash it and raise mysticism above it, just consider the
historical evidence and all the mayhem which has resulted from mystic
ideologies. Sure, you're free to believe what you will, but that doesn't
mean what you believe is real (nor necessarily good).

I would rather believe in what is real, not what I insist to be real
contrary to the evidence. The latter is called "delusion."

HF

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