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Thank you, baquai.

Baquai mentions a point that I completely neglected. The claim that these tapes put you in the same mental state as a skilled meditator of several years is outrageous and stupid.

Everything can certainly boiled down to a brain state. Sure. Just like you can boil down someone to a two word description, like "nice guy" or "big jerk." These descriptions, however, are far from exhaustive and lack a whole lot of crucial information.

The state of a meditator is not just a "brain state." It is a state in his or her own brain, which contains an ongoing chemistry and bunches and bunches of neural-connections, dendritic whatsits, and glial thingamabobs. It's a big, honkin, complex mess of different stuff. It's unique and formed, partially, from hours and hours (if not years and years) of meditation.

Statements like "if you fly on a concord to location x or walk there, you still end up in location x" are patently absurd. The person who walks is different from the person who flies because of his experiences, time for reflection upon them, and blah blah blah. I am not exactly sure that I need to point this stuff out, but when people repeat Centerpointe advertising it makes me think that there are basic thoughts that they are putting aside because they just want the neato meditation CDs.

In fact, I am willing to bet that 20 minutes, 60 minutes, 540 hours of listening to awakening (funny, it should be called "Put your reason to sleep and hand over your money Levels 1, 2, 3, etc.") you will not be where someone who has meditated for 15 years is. Sorry.

During and after listening to the "Prepare to be screwed out of your money Prologue," I can say I was no where near where I was after like 2 months of zazen. No way.

Ok. I'm exhausted on this. I'll shut up for good.







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First of all calm down. Your heated rhetoric hardly sounds like the output of seasoned meditators;maybe the overwhelm is kicking in.
I have been using Holosync for just over two years,during that time I have kept a journal.
I have noticed many changes. My ability to withstand various stressors has increased greatly. More importantly the people close to me have noticed changes within me and have told me without my asking.
By all means carry on with traditional meditation methods,however,I think you will find that it takes considerably longer than Holosync.
If you feel as strongly as you do against Holosync don't bother with it.
As for expense,well after years of searching it's nice to find something that works. I am now at the stage were the levels last for a year. The cost 4$-5$ per week. In England thats about two beers,hardly expensive.
Self deception ? I dont' think so. I have discarded many self help products. I have the confidence to trust my own experience and the feedback of those who are close to me.
There are many paths to get to where we all want to get to. I have found mine, I hope that you all find yours.
As for the marketing, if you don't like it bin it. If Holosync does'nt work for you,then send it back for a refund. It is'nt difficult.







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It's funny to me that you consider what I am saying as overheated and the result of overwhelm. The result of strong feelings and not lukewarm, certainly. I can assure you that my nostrils weren't flaring and I wasn't hurling my own feces at the walls and screaming when I posted.

Irrational and not the result of a seasoned meditator... Hmmm. Depends on the meditator. Read some Zen stories, and you'll find my rhetoric much less severe than the actions of meditators much more seasoned than I. I disagree with your assessment of my conclusions as unreasoned.

If you've gotten improvements, Nick, then good for you. The question I have is just what was fundamental in the creation of those results? Did you need the Centerpointe material? Could you have gotten the same results if you had just sat there doing mindfulness exercises? We disagree on the answers to that question, and that is the crux of it.

As to your statement that people meditating go slower and get less benefits: balderdash. It's an easy statement to make, but a hard one to back up.

Long ago, I have already started doing what you have suggested, Nick, concerning Centerpointe "literature" that I receive. It goes straight into the trash.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 04, 2003).]






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NickR,
I am not feeling "heated".I practiced with the Holosync tapes for about 12 weeks.They did not have the impact on me that the hemi-sync tapes had.I have done traditional meditation with the tapes and just meditated with out them.I found that I do not need Holosync to meditate so I am not continuing the program.I think the Monroe tapes are a useful tool for exploration.I had some very interesting experiences with them at a moderate cost and a minor investment of time.The Centerpointe program is way over priced,has way to much hype for me and just does not deliver on there claims.Spiritual practice is a lifetime anyway ,Whats the rush?,I got caught up in "delta,deeper,faster more" mode and bought the Awakening prologue.I learned a valuable lesson.Again I must say the LSC tapes are worth every penny;-)






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You say that you gave Holosync a 12 week trial (hardly enough) and then you say "whats the rush". A little inconsistent.
Centerpointe certainly indulge in hyperbole
but the product works. The results that I have had, go beyond practising mindulness meditation and are a lot more stable.
I agree about your judgement of LSC's products. Natural Brilliance is outstanding.
Anyway lets agree to differ. But scamsters do not usually offer 12 month guarantees. Paul Scheele seems happy enough to include a contribution on Euphoria from Bill Harris. I think very highly of both men. They deserve all their success.







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quote:
Originally posted by babayada:
I'll shut up for good.

"...and then I think I'll ramble on a little more."

I don't know which of the two is worse, babayada for using "crux" and "balderdash" when "pivotal point" and "nonsense" will do, or baquai for using Holosync for a whopping 3 months and saying it doesn't deliver on what it says it does. Spoken like someone who has yet to read the Centerpointe literature that gets sent out.

Of course, you're both entitled to your opinions and your million dollar words. If you both think you need to be putting some "effort" in by doing regular meditation as a way of feeling you've accomplished something, by all means, go right ahead. But personally, I'm one to think that Bill Harris delivers on what he promises. Have I gone into the deeper levels and seen all of these benefits? No, but it makes sense to me.

If traditional meditation is so good, then why are you both considering other alternatives? Or have you both just decided to take a couple steps down this road, looked further along the path and said, "Screw this"? From what I've read in the Centerpointe literature, getting the benefits of meditation has absolutely zero to do with the experiences you have during the meditation. But now I'm just rambling to get my two cents in. Hopefully once I've used Holosync for a few years, I'll realize how pointless these debates really are.

[This message has been edited by Solarimus (edited July 05, 2003).]






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Solarimus,

I don't consider balderdash or crux to be million dollar words. I value them at around 50 cents, max. Disestablishmentarianism or the like is closer to a million dollar word. More syllables, see? And, hey, at least I don't use french. Notice that I didn't once use vis-a-vis or jouissance. It could be worse.

I don't know how sincere you will think me when I say that these are the words that first come to mind as I am typing. I do admit that I find it amusing that it annoys you. I don't find stuff like that annoying. As a writer and fan of George Carlin, I do feel that it would be appropritate to criticize me for using "actual truth" when "truth" would suffice.

I know I said I'd shut up, and I didn't. I feel a little bit guilty about that, but then someone came along and made a response, to which I felt oblidged to respond.

If what Bill Harris says makes sense to you, then we differ in both reasoning and opinions. Not much more a person can say regarding those facts.

Why did I consider alternatives to traditional meditation? Curiosity.

Did I say "screw this" to traditional meditation? Yes. Several times. Why? Well, zazen can be pretty freaking painful. Physically and psychologically. Full lotus, sitting absolutely straight (luckily we weren't hit by sticks), and trying desperately to count ten complete breaths without a stray thought ... painful. Add to that the inner craziness that can happen during meditation, and you got the perfect activity for any willing masochist. It's been described as having a huge ball of molten metal in your throat that you can neither swallow nor spit up. TM is a lot easier, but there were times I just got lazy and decided to say to hell with it. Currently, I meditate sporatically. I don't use holosync because I think (here it comes) it's balderdash.

I have heard the same thing from different sources about the benefits of meditation having little to do with the actual experiences of it. That you shouldn't strive for a special feeling, or what have you. Go with it, whatever it is is the message. I agree with that. About effort, it does feel better to me when I feel that I am participating in the process and not having it done to me by a tape or another person. It feels more personal and more valid. However, that is personal and has nothing to do with the efficacy or lack of efficacy of a process. That's just personal taste.

As to these discussions being pointless ... well, depends on your point of view. I find it very entertaining. Anyway, in a thousand years, maybe more maybe less, from now ... everything the human race has done can be considered pointless.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 06, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited July 06, 2003).]






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