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Amen to all of that Brother Gallen! ;\)


blessings,

Steve
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Aloha,

When we post a reply to someone's question or request for assistance, we each respond in the best way we know how. That is where discernment comes in, and the reader needs to realize that post can come from students with less, as much, or more experience than himself.

Breath,
Read,
Appreciate the contribution,
Receive what resonates with you,
Leave that which doesn't.

That goes for a post by someone who signed up yesterday, someone like Gallen who's contributed for a number of years, or a moderator saying "Chunyi said ______" ;\)

We each post for reasons we are aware of, and those we may not be aware of. The focus or intent of the board is for the community of SFQ practitioners to share their experiences, stories, and questions regarding their practice and experiences with the work.

Guidance and moderation can come in many forms. Like in healing work, sometimes it's in letting the group naturally "balance" itself, or assidting this by resending the message/intent/signal. There are times when surgury of Western medicine is required, infused with a healing message. Most can be taken care of with the earlier, and some rare occasion warrant a little "EMT" assistance.

There are many ways to cook a potatoes. Rather than bring in the numerous modalities, tinctures, homeopathic, machines, and procedures here that our members have encountered, the focus is Spring Forest Qigong's and philosophy, techniques, meditations.

As Gallen mentioned previously, look at what SFQ brings to the table to work with, support, or enhance the situation.

Shakurav's suggestion of sending a person a private message regarding other avenues of treatment is valid. There are times I receive emails from members wondering why someone is posting about rolfing or homeopathic on an SFQ focused forum. Their time is limited online, and if they wanted to investigate a massage modality or energetic supplement route, they'd search the net for that. There will be references to different experiences on this Forum as there are in all discussions. Notice that a bunch of the initial replies mentioned that Paralminals, Holosync, yoga etc, assisted in their healing It's when someone's only feedback is focused on supplements, crystals, etc., that they'll need to be focused back on the Forum's intent. That's like a chiropractor bringing his/her table to a 6-day SFQ retreat and doing chiropractic on other participants when it's time to practice the SFQ techniques Chunyi just showed.

(uniquesoul - I think it was repeating the schizandra suggestion, and more so, adding the dosage you took that sent the flags off with Shakurav. At that point it drifted closely into the "Prescriptive Neutral Zone" ;\) )

You'll find some interesting crossovers with other modalities that can help you understand what Chunyi is teaching. You'll see Gallen as an example of this when ever he brings in a martial arts, Native American, or different qigong system example, he'll tie it into a concept Chunyi mentions in relation to the question posted. "Oldfield's Research and Development" was mentioned earlier. Pulling a snippet from his web site...

 Quote:
"I think that ElectroTransplant Therapy can assist in this re-tuning process. We digitally record the melodious sound made by the healthy tissues, and then play this back to those that have gone off-key, to remind them of the correct notes needed for harmony to be re-established. Hopefully, once re-tuned, the choir can, with regular practise, maintain that balance and harmony.

Where possible we try to take signals from the persons themselves. If, for instance, someone has a problem with their left hand, we would take a signal from their right hand if that were transmitting a healthy signal. There may be a situation where it might be beneficial to take a signal from a healthy close relative to help a close family member."


Rather than look for the next cool machine or instrument to be developed, you notice that this is what you are simply doing in the level two healing process.

Understanding comes from experience. Take the time to do the work -for yourself and on others. Level II, III, and IV didn't not come out of Chunyi getting spoon-fed techniques and concepts from his in-person teachers, rather what developed out of his practice and experience with the basics.

this is an enjoyable post - thank you makemerry for starting it, and all who are participating in it and other on the Forum.

A blessed New Years to each of you and yours,

Shawn

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Thank you for your input, Shawn. I like your point expressed as:

Breath,
Read,
Appreciate the contribution,
Receive what resonates with you,
Leave that which doesn't.

This is a wonderful philosophy!

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I've been keenly interested in healing for the 20 years since my first really severe depression. It appears to me that different healing modalities work for different people and I haven't seen any one thing that works well for everyone. There also seems to be a placebo effect that happens for many people, i.e. the therapy seems to work well in the beginning and good reports abound; eventually, when the ill person's initial hopeful enthusiasm wears off, the benefit is not clear, and the modality is eventually dropped and forgotten.
I'm happy to hear people's suggestions about things that were helpful FROM THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE ... herbs or qigong or whatever. I value the experience of others. I think everyone here keeps the focus primarily on qigong; it doesn't seem to me that it hurts to share experiences with other healing modalities as an aside.
Shakurav, I appreciate your offer of distance healing. Any day is probably a good day. Friday, Jan 9 is a less busy day than others, and a time when I could be more consciously receptive. I had 4 telephone healing sessions from Master Lin, a number he suggested, and didn't notice any change in my general feeling state or awareness.
I have been trying some of Gallen's suggestions, trying to immerse myself deeper in the practice. The suggestion that seems the most helpful so far is the suggestion to notice my thoughts throughout the day and see if they're taking me in the direction I want to go. I've been doing longer qigong sessions, but I haven't figured out how to find 2 hours a day for sessions. It may be that I need to see some improvement from the hour a day I am putting in to devote 2 hours a day. In many of the stories in Master Lin's book, including his own story, the benefits came quickly and without much qigong practice.
I am open to trying and investigating things with open heart and mind. I don't seem to have huge amounts of faith. The only thing that has kept me doing SFQ this long without any apparent result is Master Lin's personal manner and energy, his lack of self-importance, his focus on kindness, love... and the healing stories from his book in which people report their own positive experience with SFQ.

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I believe it is your defeatist attitude that is preventing you from success. I know it is difficult and seems impossible. Personally I have suffered for more than twenty years from depression and anxiety and panic attacks. I no longer have them.

You speak about placebo, which is a criticism that I have heard a lot when someone isn't up for looking deeper into Qigong or TCM. How would you explain successful acupuncture on animals? Do the animals think " Hey, these needles are working!" or Qigong on plants?

Until you get SICK of being SICK and TIRED you will NEVER get better. Never. Unless you are fully sick of it. Life will get worse for you until the day you die.

You are not unique or special in your depression. MILLIONS of people are in that boat. Things DO work. Taking action with the proper attitude makes the change when someone truly wants to change.

Some might think I am being too harsh maybe. If I had never experienced deep depression I would agree. There were YEARS I was suicidal. So everyone, please spare me the reprimand.

Qigong, or any other worthy modality will work if you continue, It might take longer than some or less then some.

Focus on unconditional love as you practice the movements. Inhale forgiveness and compassion and exhale sadness, anger and any other negative emotion. Use your imagination to see the extra energy disperse in any form the you like. Butterflies or smoke like Master Lin teaches.


Without desire there is tranquility. And in this way all things would be at peace. -Lao Tzu
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This is great! I am learning so much from this discussion. Thank you again, makemerry for providing us all this opportunity. And thanks to Shawn for the feedback. I understand what you are saying.

A few things...

First a note of clarification:

While it is true that Master Lin's pretty miraculous healing (which much more than the pain and arthritis in his knees was about him losing his depression, anger and fear) did happen "quickly" (the way you phrased it was "including his own story, the benefits came quickly and without much qigong practice"), I think this is a pretty relative term within the context of his story and this "little detail" is crucial to someone who really wants to be healed (me for instance) :

Chunyi Lin was in a soccer stadium full of tens of thousands of people while a very famous qigong master (who is an interesting character in his own rite, who is a featured player in some startling scientific experiments during the qigong re (Chinese for "fever" or "craze" if you want to read a fascinating book about this time and its history in CHina, read QIGONG FEVER by David Palmer) of the the 80's and early 90's), led them in instruction and a SEVEN HOUR MEDITATION! \:o

This was seven hours WITHOUT moving! And no bathroom breaks! I think to really get the impact of what happened, one has to include the context, including, the pain and discomfort that Master Lin went through during that SEVEN hours.

Now, I am certainly not suggesting that anyone doing SFQ here or anywhere needs to do this to help their healing process (although it can work in many cases, where one is really serious--see below).

However, in making my personal breakthrough with my terrible migraines that I suffered through and with for many years, I woke up in the middle of the night (about 2:30 AM) to take a migraine pill, looked at the pill for what seemed like 10 minutes, but was probably only about 2, and then put it back in the closet and told my wife I am not coming back to bed, I am going to lose this migraine without the side effects of that drug (which for about 5 years was my only relief, but I hated the side effects).

I was inspired because I had just met Master Lin for my first time here in SF during a LSC "Triple Fortune" seminar with him, Paul Scheele, and Marie Diamond. He had done a healing on me and there was a group healing, which stopped the migraine that I had had all weekend (without the medicine).

So I stayed up and did SFQ for about FOUR hours! And then I did another 3-5 hours (I lost track at some point during that day (it was a Sunday).

At the end of this marathon session, my migraine was completely gone. Not only that, but from then on (that was just over a year ago now), I have been able to control it and not suffer, so that when the first signs come, I can do about 5 minutes of Small Universe and I am migraine free. The last pill I took was November 2007.

Now, if one measures it in weeks, or days, I guess one could say, I had an "instant healing". But even there, I had been doing SFQ (albeit much less intensely or "religiously" than I now do it) for 2 years before that, as well as other forms of qigong (I actually have been practicing Tai Chi and various forms of qigong for a long time: over 30 years).

I believe now, that had I not done that marathon session and IF (a big if) I could have still been motivated to do my normal 30 minutes to one hour of practice I had been doing back then in 2007 (sometimes, but rarely, doing a two hour total of active and SU), I still probably would have healed my migraines. But it would have taken much longer.

I hear that it is hard to have "huge amounts of faith" while you are suffering. But I go back to my very early comments in this topic thread that you started (and I am grateful that you did, because I have learned
a lot in this process) :

You cannot compare your results to any one else's and everyone is different.

And I can also understand your not wanting to invest a significant amount of time more to the hour you are doing now without results: you probably have, like most of us, a very busy life, with many commitments, and limited time and other resources.

Yet, at some point, not just for you, but for all of us, it comes down to a question, an inner one, that only the individual can answer to and for themselves (i.e. if someone writes it here or tells someone, it does not count for as much as what they tell themselves):

How much do I REALLY want to heal?

Really? Do I really? Or am I holding onto something, a belief system, a past trauma, maybe even something from so long ago, I do not even remember what it is anymore? Or do I want to make bargains?

Not for you (if the shoe does not fit, please don't even try it on. It's mine! My shoe! Mine! Don't touch it! Don't even look at it! ;\) ) but I know for me, I often make bargains, am not willing to let go of some things and am not willing to go to whatever nth degree (which for many people is usually going to a doctor, or having to deal with more drastic procedures than 7 hours of SFQ) I need to do to let it go and move on.

Now even here (i.e. based on my story or Master Lin's) there are no guarantees.
So you could do my seven plus hour marathon (or your own variation thereof), even multiple times and it is possible that you would experience nothing significant.

However, it is very unlikely. And again, not telling you to do what I did or anything like it. I am not even suggesting you do this.

More in the spirit of: I am sharing what worked for me and then allowing the readers to decide for themselves, as has been stated so clearly by others in this very thread.

For me, the weight of the migraine broke a kind of "tie game" that was happening for me and I just committed myself to doing this UNTIL it worked. Period.

That is a different way of approaching it than testing it and if it works, I keep doing it and if not, I stop doing (with that signal of stopping as a part of the signal or message I send).

Now, of course, that was one your questions early on here in the thread: how long do I keep doing this before I stop doing it because it doesn't work?

I am not sure if you can see how powerful that question is in terms of your healing.

It is a good question. However, even if I were to ask it, I would rephrase it as not, how long do I do something before I stop doing if it doesn't work (which carries a HUGE message and signal to all parts of self). But rather, how long will it take until it does work?

And I would let the answer be at the end, rather than the beginning. In other words, I would put the question off until MUCH later (like a year at least...or a seven hour marathon! ;\) ).

Is very effective and very powerful. It works stronger and quicker than many other forms of qigong, in my experience.

However, the results vary, because it is very much based on levels of being that are more complex than the mere physical body. And since I am not you, nor is anyone else, only some part of you knows the answer to "how long do I have to do this before it will work?"

For me, it is not really a question of having "huge amounts of faith" (at least up front). I am more of a mystic and the mystic, unlike a "orthodox" believer, says " I will try this experiment that has been repeated by others before me, and when it works, then and only then will I believe.

But part of the experiment here in SFQ is in fact, the "signal" or "message" we give ourselves.

And as a mystic, I have to immerse myself in the experiment. In this experiment, the rules are somewhat different than in a chemical experiment or a physics experiment or a financial investment experiment.

There is a strong subjective element that is in fact, an important part of the healing. Commitment is key. In many forms of qigong, they teach that one should commit to 300 hours or a year, which ever comes first (I had a teacher who used that benchmark). I think even that is more of a metaphor than a necessary detail. It is more like "I am committed to this UNTIL it works and that may take a year or years" (and for me, this is a no-brainer or was. It was not "how long do I do this before the migraine goes away, but much stronger for me at that point, was "how long have I had this damn migraine anyway?!?" In other words, for me, there, it was almost like a recovering alcoholic, who finally hits bottom and goes through AA because nothing else has worked and they want to recover. The "weight" of the migraine was MUCH heavier than the "weight of how long do I have to practice". I was just so fed up with the pain and discomfort and dysfunction it caused that, I committed to doing SFQ for how ever many hours it took to make it work. And it did! And I still do that all the time now. If I begin to experience dis-ease or dis-comfort, I commit myself to more practice, just as some people commit themselves to an antibiotic protocol or whatever. This is not a perfect analogy, because there are side-effects to allopathic medicine and anything that has chemicals in it. There are few side-effects to SFQ. Except maybe enlightenment eventually! ;\) )

SFQ will work, if you use that element of "signal" or "message" or "faith" or not. But it might (and probably will) take even longer, in that case. And then if one is asking it in the form of "when do I get to stop this if the results do not measure up to either my own expectations or the results that others have got" then based on my experience of how people practice these things, the odds are it will not work. Because you will stop way before you get to that much longer time without the stronger signal.

Now I am NOT saying that you are not using a good message.

I am only saying that your question and your point about the so-called "placebo effect" is very significant. Dr. Andrew Weil points out time and time again, that the label of "placebo effect" has been one of THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE THINGS IN MEDICINE! He explains that the very dismissal of this by modern Western medicine, is in fact, one of the worst things about Western medicine! If the first principle from Hippocrates, is "do no harm", what you really want is the so-called "placebo effect"! That will do less harm than the side-effects of the medicine, surgery or other invasive procedures. Dr. Weil points out that (in his words) "we should be aiming for that effect. It would do less harm and if it works, it works!

And labeling it the way it has been labeled and thinking that it is less important than say a chemical effect, is precisely the OPPOSITE of how medicine should work!

We call it something else in qigong circles: it is called either "information" or "message" or "signal" healing.

I am also suggesting based on the topic, the name of the forum etc, that something that has been tried within the context of SFQ is using an even "higher dose" of this "medicine" (in the sense that the Native Americans use the word).

Higher in terms of either time or message or both.

We in the modern or post-modern world, are loathe to be "intellectually dishonest". So the idea of "lying" in terms of something that needs to be "a fact" (or not), is hard for us to understand.

And yet, that is the key to most healing, in terms of modalities of this.

What I mean, is something similar to what Chunyi Lin has said, "Visualize. If you can't visualize, pretend that you are doing so. If you can't do that, 'LIE'!" ;\)

I am not suggesting you do that here in writing. I am writing this to help you, not to get you to show me or anyone else how you agree with me or whatever.

I am suggesting that what has worked for many people in terms of the kind of "instant" healing that you are looking for, is to say over and over and over again (even if you have to "lie" to yourself about it! It isn't really a "lie". At least it may not be. It is more a kind of a Schrödinger's Cat experiment. You won't know if it is a "lie" or not until you really do it) something along the lines of :

"I am healing. My depression is gone, I am completely healed. All my channels are open, open, open, I am completely healed. I feel so good".

Say it a lot to yourself, throughout the day. Celebrate how much the SFQ is indeed working. You may feel stupid or dishonest sometimes for saying or thinking this, if part of you "knows" or "believes" it is not so.

But on some level it will be so, and if you do it enough along with the practice of the active exercise and the SU, you will experience it.

Along with this, it is good that you are doing longer qigong sessions. That is very good. And just keep pushing it by a few minutes each time. It is similar to resistance training (in fact, it IS resistance training. It is just a different kind of "resistance"! ;\) )

And play with it. Try on some of your one hour sessions, doing only one or two or three exercises, and NOT doing the entire set. Try just one sometimes. Sometimes for some persistent long term blockages, really sinking into just one movement for a long time, can be more powerful than doing 7 or 8.

If you can't do a 2 hour session in your now one hour session, just let that go for now and try doing a half hour sometime in the middle of the day and one more half hour sometime before sleep. If you are already doing your one hour either midday or at night, try bringing in just a half hour (or even 10 minutes) in the morning.

And the same for the other "session", If you can't actually do two hours total for a day, just do the hour you are doing, and add another 5-10 minutes twice during the day.

Three times a day is best (one time is good, twice a day is better). It sends the body and mind a very strong message: "I love you. You are so worth it to me. I am investing these repeated intervals of time, not only every day, but multiple times each day because I love you".

Small Universe is critical to SFQ working. It is good without it, but it is MUCH better with it. But I know that resistance comes up a lot in relationship to SU (at least it does/did for me), especially at early stages in one's practice.

So the same thing there. Try NOT doing the entire half hour, if you are experiencing too much resistance or difficulty. Once in awhile, try doing 10-15 minutes and then rub your hands, rub your face massage your ears and you're done with SU for that day. Try it. If you can, try adding this to some other part of your day when you already have done the full 27 minutes on the audio that is even better.

Remember, as Shawn, gallen and others have said, you do not have to be with Master Lin's rhythm. You can just use that as a basic guide and/or background. Or you can just use music. Or silence. I use all of the above depending on time and how I feel.

Visualize the depression as something tangible, such as the golden butterflies that Master Lin uses a lot these days (I like that imagery a lot myself). Master Lin sent out a very nice short (15 minute) meditation that has helped me with some small, acute depression issues related to events recently, where he uses this same imagery. If you want, you can PM me and give me your e-mail, or I can PM you mine and then you can e-mail me and I will forward this great little meditation.

And then once you have the image of the depression being something really physical like butterflies or gas, or smoke or dragons or birds or whatever, then visualize it leaving your body. Do this for each SFQ exercise session you do at the beginning and maybe for "Breathing of the Universe" and/or "7 Steps to New Life"

Do this, whether you add more reps of SFQ practice a day or not (but doing both is better).

And even if you can't do two hour session, or a marathon session like I did (or Master Lin had when he had his "breakthrough"), just set an intention that some day, if you have to, you will. Tell yourself, that you will build up to it.

And question yourself, regarding gallen's point and my echoing it: search or scan your body and mind. Is there ANY part of you, any at all, that has healed or is healing? Any pain, that is less or gone. Any congestion or discomfort that is either lessened (or even worse, because sometimes, quite often, that is a sign that healing indeed happening. It means that energy is moving. Same with any NEW symptoms. That can be a very good sign!) ? In other words, just for a few minutes, put the depression or its symptoms aside and look at your whole being. Is there anything in you that is moving with this practice? If the answer is yes, let that be the beginning of more faith. Not for us here on the forum, but for you. And perhaps for others that you will help later.

Picture yourself in a boat on a river, with tangerine trees and mar...


Wait, a minute, wrong song!

;\)

What I meant was, picture yourself, helping someone else who is depressed. Maybe even in this forum some day, or in your life. Someone who might say to you, "Look, I have been doing this for months now, and I am not sure it is going to work".

And then you can tell them your success story, inspire them to keep going and think how good it will feel when they too have a healing! \:\)

That can be a very strong focus and message. It gives you a script, a goal, helping someone else, a whole bunch of great stuff.

And finally, I will do a distance healing on you on Friday. Thank you for letting me "practice"! I am still learning Level 3 skills and distance detecting and healing is one of those that takes a lot of practice. So I truly am grateful every time I get an opportunity and some actually gives me some feedback. Please do so, and do it by sending me a PM.

Much healing to you, makemerry. I know that you are experiencing it on some level and I know that if you stay consistent, no matter what, you will become more aware of that healing in your present.


blessings,

Steve
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Shawn, thanks for your post. I liked the guidance on how to view a post. Helped me as a post/er!

makemerry,
You can't have or not have faith when you are holding a focus, or experiencing emptiness. You have to come away from a focus, or out of emptiness to realize faith or not having faith. Same for pain. When we are doing qigong and accomplish a focus, or, reach emptiness, we are in the 'best state' relative to self healing, regeneration, or transformation. Stick with one hour if it works better for you. Focus on the quality of the time you spend.

Consider doing a retreat. Self designed, at home, or attending one. It is a concentrated time set aside to do qigong, not a seemingly long commitment to two hrs a day. You can experience a more intensive practice for a short time period. Fasting can be part of that, or partial, or just healthy food, less food..
My most transformative times have been in retreat.

Listening casually to some of mantra CD's is easy to add in.
You don't have to be Buddhist to benefit. They help purify spirit, connect to the heart. Just as background music or falling asleep to...
Focused time in a healing or transformative focus, is other than the experience of depression. That time spent doesn't support depression.
I hope you continue with your SFQ practice, and I wish you the best with it.
love,
gallen

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Aloha,

I don't know if this is the mediation Shakurav was referring too, but we're offering an optional download site for Chunyi's free gift "Open your heart-Change your world" meditation.

Here is the note that went out with it:

 Quote:
Hello Friends:

Many of us are impacted by the troubles in our world as this year draws to a close and are looking for better ways to cope with the challenges in the coming year – be they economic, emotional, physical or spiritual.

At Spring Forest Qigong, we wondered what we could do to help. We decided to create a special healing meditation by Master Chunyi Lin as our gift to you and to others this holiday season. It’s our hope that this free 15 minute meditation might be useful to many.

This podcast is our gift to everyone. All you need do is download and listen. After listening we hope you will want to share it with everyone you know.

Imagine what would happen if 1,000, or 1 million, or 1 billion people practiced this simple, openhearted exercise every day. We would change our world!

In peace,

Your Spring Forest Friends


You can get to the download page by clicking here.

Much Love,

Shawn

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That is indeed the very one! It is wonderful, Everyone I have played it for in my practice groups have loved it and wanted copies.

Highly recommended: thanks Shawn!


blessings,

Steve
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