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#9418 04/10/04 03:28 AM
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I am fascinated by this individual and what he has to say.

I had attended a Patterns of Persuasion seminar with Bandler years ago. It left a bad taste in my mouth. But hearing Mark Orth talk about and use the language patterns (it was almost verbatim from the Bandler seminar), I see that they can be applied in a different way.

Is there any way to get more materials from this person?







#9419 04/11/04 03:17 AM
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I don't know.

What was it about Bandler's presentation that left the bad taste?


T






#9420 04/11/04 05:08 AM
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Well, the thing about Bandler's presentation was Bandler himself, really.

He'd suggest helpful things like you go to the edge of the building and visualize yourself jumping off ... or that you visualize a particle forming in your blood stream and lodging into a vein near your brain and killing you. Stuff like that.

Granted, a lot of good stuff came out of that seminar, but I also learned that he really liked to play with people's minds. Kinda like that kid in toy story with the black t-shirt liked to play with his toys.








#9421 04/11/04 09:52 AM
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Yeah, there seems to be some crazy stuff along with his genius(in search of a better word).

I do like his DHE-recordings tho. I've heard some claims that DHE isn't much of what it's supposed to be but I do enjou listening to him...






#9422 04/11/04 11:18 AM
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He remains a remarkably charming and dynamic man.

Even though I have had some bad experiences regarding him, I still find his recordings stimulating and enteraining.

He really is full of crap, though. It's almost impossible to separate what is complete lies from what is true. Stephen Gilligan was talking about the dangers of certain approaches, the "anything is possible" or "you can do anything" approach in particular. "Just look at Richard Bandler," he said.

I knew exactly what he meant.

Contrast this with a story about Milton Erickson. One of his students was told a story about 3 graduate students. He said 3 graduate students had seen him during the time of their studies. They each failed and succeeded in various ways. IIRC, one failed his undergraduate work while doing extremely well at graduate work, one excelled at undergraduate work while failing miserably at graduate work, and I forget what the third one did ... anyway, he described very unlikely combinations and the guy was like, yeah, right ... I get the metaphor but Milton is making this stuff up.

Well, later on he found out who these students were and discovered that Milton had been in fact telling the truth. The impact this had on him was enormous.

Now that's the way I like it. Don't BS me.







#9423 04/11/04 10:08 PM
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I'm mostly fascinated by his attitude. I guess I don't wanna know how much of the things he's said are untrue.... I just feel that I want so much more out of life and feel less hindered by limiting thoughts when I listen to his recordings.

Anyhoo... what about this Mark Orth and language patterns? I like Michael Hall's Mind Lines. Have I missed something?






#9424 04/11/04 10:44 PM
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In the Abundance for Life course Paul Scheele talks about stuff he learned from Mark Orth. On the interview CDs, Mark talks about how he uses language to get information about a person's map of the world to persuade that individual.

It's pretty powerful stuff.

If you have Bandler's old Patterns of Persuasion tapes you'll have heard a great deal of these patterns and some of them are in the Persuasion Engineering book.

The way Bandler uses them, is, I don't know ... I would never want to use them that way. It would feel skeevy. But the way Mark uses them is different. It feels more caring.

Basically, you will ask questions about a hypothetical situation involving a product, service, or outcome to get someone's map of it.

An example I've experienced first hand was when this woman was talking to me about her boyfriend, with whom she seemed about to break up. She said that her boyfriend, and previous boyfriends were all uncomfortable with how powerful a person she was. She said that I looked like a guy who might like a powerful girlfriend, and she just wanted to know what my point of view would be about her if I were her boyfriend.

So, I pretended I was her boyfriend and talked about the things I might think and feel about her, having known her for a little while. She began to ask me questions about what I said. "Well, what about that would make you feel that? What do you have to think in order for that to be true?"

After we stopped talking and I went home, I realized I was seriously hot for her. I mean I wanted her bad. Later I realized what she had done. It was pretty slick.

She had gotten me to imagine we were already together and got me to investigate and develop my mental map for being together with her, enjoying her, appreciating her, and being turned on by her. By the time we were finished talking, I had had a seriously detailed set of representations of us being together, etc.

It wasn't ethical, but man did it work. I ended up getting together with another person, and I saw this same (persuasive) girl during that time. We had a similar conversation, but I was hip to her ... and she seemed to back off a bit.

So, that's how it's done. It's pretty damned effective. What I didn't think about was using the same sorts of techniques with myself. I realized that most goal setting techniques are merely attempts at enriching your map conerning the benefits and positive role in your life of any desired outcome.

It's persausion ... but at the same time it is more than persuasion. It isn't only fooling yourself. An interesting thing about Mark Orth's approach is that he'll ask questions involving the negative aspects of something as well. "If you owned this car, what do you imagine would be some of the things that might dissatify you, having owned it for some time?"

The client will talk about dissatisfaction, but in doing so will enrich the experience of already having owned the car. Of course, I am assuming later on in the discussion he would address those concerns (dissatisfactions).

Pretty neat, huh?







#9425 04/12/04 03:58 AM
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How can I find out more about Mark Orth? I tried to Google his name but didn't come up with any links. This all sounds interesting.

Looking forward to your reply.

Deb






#9426 04/12/04 09:31 AM
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I tried googling him too. As well as the name of the company he is associated with. I didn't find much to pursue. I found some articles by a Mark Orth. If it's the same one, he's a staunch liberal with strong opinions about the current administration ... not exactly the kind of information I was going for, but interesting enough.







#9427 04/12/04 10:53 AM
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That's some really interesting things. Did the girl you were into have any NLPish knowledge or did she just know by experience to do it?

Man do I want that abundanceforlife-course or what?

Having a father who takes great pride in beeing negative I do have to clear up some heavy starring at the spot of the diamond. I would be most interested in finding techniqies where you can shift negative thoughts or make more use of them. Seeing someone taking good use of some dissatisfying thoughts makes me feel good...

Keep talking Babayada, everything you say right now on this forum is interesting.

Please keep it up about the AfL-course in particular.

T






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