Forums IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ Abundance for Life, Effortless Success Mark Orth

I am fascinated by this individual and what he has to say.

I had attended a Patterns of Persuasion seminar with Bandler years ago. It left a bad taste in my mouth. But hearing Mark Orth talk about and use the language patterns (it was almost verbatim from the Bandler seminar), I see that they can be applied in a different way.

Is there any way to get more materials from this person?

I don't know.

What was it about Bandler's presentation that left the bad taste?

T

Well, the thing about Bandler's presentation was Bandler himself, really.

He'd suggest helpful things like you go to the edge of the building and visualize yourself jumping off ... or that you visualize a particle forming in your blood stream and lodging into a vein near your brain and killing you. Stuff like that.

Granted, a lot of good stuff came out of that seminar, but I also learned that he really liked to play with people's minds. Kinda like that kid in toy story with the black t-shirt liked to play with his toys.

Yeah, there seems to be some crazy stuff along with his genius(in search of a better word).

I do like his DHE-recordings tho. I've heard some claims that DHE isn't much of what it's supposed to be but I do enjou listening to him...

He remains a remarkably charming and dynamic man.

Even though I have had some bad experiences regarding him, I still find his recordings stimulating and enteraining.

He really is full of crap, though. It's almost impossible to separate what is complete lies from what is true. Stephen Gilligan was talking about the dangers of certain approaches, the "anything is possible" or "you can do anything" approach in particular. "Just look at Richard Bandler," he said.

I knew exactly what he meant.

Contrast this with a story about Milton Erickson. One of his students was told a story about 3 graduate students. He said 3 graduate students had seen him during the time of their studies. They each failed and succeeded in various ways. IIRC, one failed his undergraduate work while doing extremely well at graduate work, one excelled at undergraduate work while failing miserably at graduate work, and I forget what the third one did ... anyway, he described very unlikely combinations and the guy was like, yeah, right ... I get the metaphor but Milton is making this stuff up.

Well, later on he found out who these students were and discovered that Milton had been in fact telling the truth. The impact this had on him was enormous.

Now that's the way I like it. Don't BS me.

I'm mostly fascinated by his attitude. I guess I don't wanna know how much of the things he's said are untrue.... I just feel that I want so much more out of life and feel less hindered by limiting thoughts when I listen to his recordings.

Anyhoo... what about this Mark Orth and language patterns? I like Michael Hall's Mind Lines. Have I missed something?

In the Abundance for Life course Paul Scheele talks about stuff he learned from Mark Orth. On the interview CDs, Mark talks about how he uses language to get information about a person's map of the world to persuade that individual.

It's pretty powerful stuff.

If you have Bandler's old Patterns of Persuasion tapes you'll have heard a great deal of these patterns and some of them are in the Persuasion Engineering book.

The way Bandler uses them, is, I don't know ... I would never want to use them that way. It would feel skeevy. But the way Mark uses them is different. It feels more caring.

Basically, you will ask questions about a hypothetical situation involving a product, service, or outcome to get someone's map of it.

An example I've experienced first hand was when this woman was talking to me about her boyfriend, with whom she seemed about to break up. She said that her boyfriend, and previous boyfriends were all uncomfortable with how powerful a person she was. She said that I looked like a guy who might like a powerful girlfriend, and she just wanted to know what my point of view would be about her if I were her boyfriend.

So, I pretended I was her boyfriend and talked about the things I might think and feel about her, having known her for a little while. She began to ask me questions about what I said. "Well, what about that would make you feel that? What do you have to think in order for that to be true?"

After we stopped talking and I went home, I realized I was seriously hot for her. I mean I wanted her bad. Later I realized what she had done. It was pretty slick.

She had gotten me to imagine we were already together and got me to investigate and develop my mental map for being together with her, enjoying her, appreciating her, and being turned on by her. By the time we were finished talking, I had had a seriously detailed set of representations of us being together, etc.

It wasn't ethical, but man did it work. I ended up getting together with another person, and I saw this same (persuasive) girl during that time. We had a similar conversation, but I was hip to her ... and she seemed to back off a bit.

So, that's how it's done. It's pretty damned effective. What I didn't think about was using the same sorts of techniques with myself. I realized that most goal setting techniques are merely attempts at enriching your map conerning the benefits and positive role in your life of any desired outcome.

It's persausion ... but at the same time it is more than persuasion. It isn't only fooling yourself. An interesting thing about Mark Orth's approach is that he'll ask questions involving the negative aspects of something as well. "If you owned this car, what do you imagine would be some of the things that might dissatify you, having owned it for some time?"

The client will talk about dissatisfaction, but in doing so will enrich the experience of already having owned the car. Of course, I am assuming later on in the discussion he would address those concerns (dissatisfactions).

Pretty neat, huh?

How can I find out more about Mark Orth? I tried to Google his name but didn't come up with any links. This all sounds interesting.

Looking forward to your reply.

Deb

I tried googling him too. As well as the name of the company he is associated with. I didn't find much to pursue. I found some articles by a Mark Orth. If it's the same one, he's a staunch liberal with strong opinions about the current administration ... not exactly the kind of information I was going for, but interesting enough.

That's some really interesting things. Did the girl you were into have any NLPish knowledge or did she just know by experience to do it?

Man do I want that abundanceforlife-course or what?

Having a father who takes great pride in beeing negative I do have to clear up some heavy starring at the spot of the diamond. I would be most interested in finding techniqies where you can shift negative thoughts or make more use of them. Seeing someone taking good use of some dissatisfying thoughts makes me feel good...

Keep talking Babayada, everything you say right now on this forum is interesting.

Please keep it up about the AfL-course in particular.

T

I'll see if we have other stuff by Mark, and we'll put it in the follow-up emails to the Abundance for Life course.

Make sure that when you order the course you give us premission to email you.

The follow-up emails will begin this week...

Pete,

Errr... I ordered already but I do not know if'n I gave you guys permission to email me ... Of course I would like materials by him, so feel free to send them.

Tore,

The lady was *very* familiar with NLP, Silva, and other techniques. She was pretty damned savvy. She knew exactly what she was doing. She was a fox and a real flirt. But I am glad she wasn't really interested in me. She looked like she would be hell to live with. And her boyfriend was a real pushover. I think she liked being dominant. I can be very nice and meek, but I've got claws.

About AFL: They have some trance breaking stuff in the course, but the funny thing is ... I don't remember most of it. HA! I find that kind of humorous that I'd have amnesia for material designed to break trances.... They have some stuff about it, mostly being in the moment and focusing on solutions. A lot of the content has to do with identity. You might want to buy that Personal Power ebook LSC offers. It has a lot of stuff in common with the course.

I am kinda pooped out on the subject, Tore ... I am sure as time goes by I will have more to say. Maybe you could ask some more questions?

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited April 13, 2004).]

What are the paraliminals about? How long are they and have you tested them?

How can I forget about asking about them? I just love paraliminals. I've been through the Natural Brilliance course once and still have great effects from the NB-Generators. At least the A-side. I'm a sucker for paraliminals since they work so good on me.

I thought I knew everything about this site. E-books? Where do I find that?

Thanks for keeping pooping.

Tore

At least two of the paraliminals are variations on past paraliminals ... with the distinct twist of the ALF course in them.

There is a self-esteem supercharger kind of one and a new history generator kind of one. There is this traveling up a mountain path one that has to do with various stages of manifesting things into your life. And the last one I really don't remeber much about the contents. Kinda like a benediction (if you are familiar with the benedictions from NLP courses) at the end of a course.

They range from 29 to 55 minutes, I think. I don't think LSC skimped on anything. Even though some are variations on old themes, they come from a different perspective and have different content.

If you like the sensation you get when you "collapse" anchors, you'll like the feelings of the new takes on old paraliminals.

Keeping pooping, eh? Like the dog on Conan O'Brian? FOR ME TO POOP ON!

Hahahah.... yes, exactly like that!

55 minute paraliminals! Good god! I'm in heaven. Just have to squeeze em into the day.

I'm not that familiar with NLP but I think I understand what you say.

So what about the dvd?

T

Didn't get the level where you get the DVD or the accelerator.

The DVD packs a talk of Paul Scheele at a retreat (I think) about the stuff featured in the Main Course along with reactions of the people that attended it. I have to review it again, but, well, I have to review the whole course again. I still have not watched every special feature, but I liked the "Who you are" one. It was so long that I got bored, but for a while I felt uplifted. The one in which Paul explained the workings of the brain, the mind, inteligences and senses was funny, I laughed a lot.

Ah... I hope that the DVD will be available for me. I'm very visual when learning stuff. I'd like a paraliminal for my eyes too... (no, not only light and sound-machine) While at it, why not kinestethic paraliminal as well?

Tore

Okay, not you're tripping into the accelerated learning material Tore.

Of course LSC uses the best method they can to pass-on the information. It's a learning experience for them too.

You are perfection.
Iam2

Babayada:

How are you doing with the course? Are any of the things you hoped to manifest happening? How is it working for you?

Parag

Well, one of the things I wanted to use the course with was handling a sense of overwhelm I get when I have to deal with large projects.

I generally will procrastinate and freak out as things come to a head. I get things done, but it is generally really frenzied toward the end.

Well, I have been handling things slightly differently from using the course and the feeling exercise. I found myself procrastinating still, but it was slightly different. I simply did the feeling exercise, and I realized that, hmmm, I just really don't want to do this stuff right now. So I didn't. And I didn't hassle myself or work myself or feel a whole bunch of guilt and shame about the stuff I felt I should get done but didn't.

Thing is, I am making progress on my current projects, and I think I will get everything in on time. This was one of my goals, to manage the project without freaking myself out or procrastinating and feeling like crap ... not even getting the rest I wanted from procrastinating in the first place.

I am also meditating every day. This is something I haven't done for a really, reall long time. And it's not like I am really forcing myself to or anything. I pretty much just want to do it.

This might not be what was intended by the course, but I am not really focusing on conscious choice. I mean, the intentions for a better life are there, I am just hesitant to make this program be like all the others I've done.

So, what I am doing is focusing on the feeling of manifestation of the feelings from my self and feeling the current situation in my life as an expression of my beingness or self. I feel that the deeper I connect in this way, the more automatically I can move through whatever it is I need to move through by intending to have my life the way it is.

That is, right now my decision is to own my present moment and state of life (including my messy apartment and everything) and to make a transition to whatever is next in as natural a way as possible.

I am sure I have more planned for myself on a higher level than what I am living. I also know that I am living as I am living for a reason (or a bunch of reasons). So I am just checking things out, letting them flow, and seeing what happens.

Every once in a while I think, oh yeah, I want this ... and things have been going pretty well. I am not in need of material things, so I haven't been using the program for that.

I believe there are many commonly acceptible psychological explanations for what the course is doing for me now without metaphysics. I admit that I am skeptical about the claims about manifesting material goods, etc.

The metaphysics of the course are interesting and, imho, half-plausible. Part of me remains skeptical about things like this, the other part of me says, "What the hell? It might be true."

So, if I try some material manifestation outside of myself with the course, I'll let you know how it goes.

Personally, I think you'd be better off trying to better your self rather than focusing on material things. But, of course, I recommend that because it is right for me. It might not be right for you, but you might want to try it.

Claims made by a lot of human potential products are horribly exaggerated (my opinion), including those made in mailings by LSC.

If the magic of belief worked, then Santa Claus would climb down chimneys and deliver a pony to every little gullible and imaginative girl and boy. How many girls and boys have ponies after Christmas?

That being said, there are things, realistically, you can do within the domain of your self. There are processes involved in your consciousness that are better to accept and be connected to in a helpful fashion as things unfold. For instance, I see my apartment as a manifestation of my thoughts and feelings, because it is my thoughts and feelings that lead me to get it, pay the rent on time, bring things into it, clean it or not clean it, put junk mail on the floor, etc. By using this course, I can certainly modify the way my apartment looks, the way I think and live. This is acceptible to me as an expression in reality of my ideas and thoughts.

The whole deal about thoughts attracting things ... well ... people work with cancer all the time without getting it. They are thinking about it, but does it happen? People have fears that horrible things are going to happen to them and their loved ones. Does it happen? Usually, no. People are paranoid and believe that the cia has implanted tracking devices, radios, mind control technology, etc., into their fillings. Does this make the CIA do so? Does it make it happen? No.

When you focus on a goal you sensitize your mind to things in your environment relevant to the achievement of your goal and you act in accordance. That is, you notice what helps you get what you want, and you act on those opportunities and achieve your goals.

This is why people who believe crazy things and act out on them are seen as crazy. Their beliefs are not in sync with reality. They are nuts.

Now take people who are, by the definition of most people at the time, nuts, but who are successful. The Wright brothers believe man could fly. Their idea was based, however, on understandings of physics and how the world worked. They worked within the limitations of physical reality and changed the world.

Now, contrast this with trying to fly by simply visiualizing yourself floating around, flying out the window, etc. Believing in one is crazy, the other the birth of a work of genius. So ... my question to you is: how are you thinking about this course? If you think you're going to fly by magic, my guess is you're in for one hell of a fall.

I have known people who believe that if they chant sutras (without even knowing what they mean), their lives will be filled with abundance. They can list a whole host of occurrences to "prove" that chanting will manifest abundance. My question is: is the link of cause and effect between chanting the sutras and having whatever happened happen a proven fact? Or would those things just have happened anyway?

I prefer to focus on what I can do for myself. From a certain point of view, what is being said in the course is plausible and makes sense. You have just got to see how most of this stuff isn't magic, but can be applied to practical application where results can seem like magic. When the unconscious mind or various levels of consciousness are involved things can seem like magic.

My next goal with this course is to allow myself to give my all to various projects with which I have tended to hold back. I'd like to be able to totally commit myself to something over long periods of time as an easily accessible skill.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited April 25, 2004).]

"The whole deal about thoughts attracting things ... well ... people work with cancer all the time without getting it. They are thinking about it, but does it happen? People have fears that horrible things are going to happen to them and their loved ones. Does it happen? Usually, no."

That's mainly because their dominant intentions aren't about what they also fear. They may love their work passionatly or perhaps a person. That bond makes them stay focused on that and maintain their wellbeeing. Showering love around is conscious creation 101, although limiting/tranceinducing beliefs may make the strongest manifester left without.

Tore

My husband has very recenlty suffered 3 strokes, from the little Ihave read and heard both on the course and on this board I really think that Mark Orth's approach to understanding the map would be of great use to my husband's condition, after all we have to find a way of recreating a map of the territory so he can negotiate it. Can anyone tell me if there is a way for me to contact him or find out more about his thoughts and writings. I am going to be brutally honest I have very little money as I have had to give up working to are for my husband.

Tore,

Are you saying that one must intend what one thinks about in order for it to manifest?

Of course, people still argue that by merely thinking about something negative, fearing it or what have you you bring it to yourself.

It's a nice thought, but that is about it. Again, naive children do not know any better and they will believe whole-heartedly in just about any convincing lie you want to tell them, especially if they think it'll help them get what they want.

Does it make it manifest? Not unless the parents see how much little Jimmy wants that toy and have the resources and desire to get it for him. And that is taking action.

I am open to happy coincidences, but I really don't think that my thoughts create my reality in any way other than a cognitive and interactive (as in relating with others and manipulating objects in the world) sense.

You know the saying: wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one gets filled first.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited April 26, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited April 26, 2004).]

Loverofcats,

There are sources readily available that may help you. Structure of Magic I and II while technical, can provide a basis for using language to increase the detail of mental maps. I'd suggest rather than using it to elaborate the maps of the problem state, use it to enrich the map about the states you want.

Also, Sleight of Mouth by Robert Dilts is available, as well as Persuasion Engineering by Richard Bandler.

These books provide you with a lot of verbal tools that may help.

Basically, however, simply ask question after question and get more and more sensory specific with your questions. "How do you know that" is a good question to use about anything. "What do you feel? What do you see? What do you hear? How do you know *that* is true?"

How specifically do you think increasing your husbands maps in what ways will help? Is he having problems with basic cognition?

"You know the saying: wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one gets filled first."

Haha... no, never heard it before. English is my second language. I hope that doesn't make to much of a mess of what I try to say.

Well babayada it seems that you have made up your mind about realitycreation. Your choice. Your experience. I've a few years of practice and have enough feedback to believe in the process. Magical thinking or wishful thinking to some. My grandpa passed away this day so I'm not in the mood of giving any detailed description of things/other that have manifested. I'm going to be a ***** and say that your mind is probably set on dismissing it anyways. I'll ask to be forgiven about that comment right now.

I also believe in acting and not just sitting on your ass waiting for the dollars to come knocking at your door. That's half of the fun, the doing. I sense from your comments some underlying issue about realitycreation which makes you negative to it. Perhaps not. That's mindreading I guess. Sorry again.

If your mind needs more info on a more intellectual level and not just a practical description of it - please take a peek at "Seth - the Nature of Personal Reality" by Jane Roberts. I'm sure that will answer a bucketful of questions. At least it's a better package for some when getting to know conscious creation. Although it's channeled and that was an issue for me at the beginning. Couldn't believe a word from the book until it just made sense a bit too much.

I still like your posts tho. cya

I am sorry to hear about your grandpa.

We could go back and forth on this issue, and you're right about my predispositions.

Hope things get better for you soon.

Thanks.

T